Rivermead Central

[John R Smith]

The Royal Scot, even the rebuilt version, always used the cab and platform, footsteps etc made as per the original lithographed model. And the Royal Scot was less expensive than other similar sized soldered construction models, presumably due to more parts being produced using press tools.

The parallel boiler Scot seems to go through a lengthy metamorphosis, from the fully tab-and-slot tinprinted original with MR tender, to the addition of smoke deflectors, coal rails, then the high-sided Stanier tender and soldered construction with engraved nameplates, from crimson lake livery to all-black in its final form by 1952. But even the late post-war versions like mine still have tabbed splashers (but soldered up).



My list may be out of sequence, and where exactly the date/hinge points for each variant are is a puzzle, although we could probably make a guess.

As far as the B17 goes, I think there must have been two batches. One for "Arsenal", the first to be listed in the 1937 catalogue. And the second for "Melton Hall", perhaps in the following year. Interestingly, both variants occur with the 16 spoke boss-plate driving wheels, so there seems to have been no progression in wheel types from one batch to the next (I am assuming that the 16 spoke engines are original equipment, as I can't imagine anybody retrofitting earlier wheels to a later engine). The snag is, my online photo samples are exclusively of electric drive models - I can find no clockwork examples - so the clockwork versions may have had the later type wheels. Perhaps.

Which leaves us with another puzzle with the Vectis "Arsenal" - is it what it purports to be?

John

 

[40057]

The parallel boiler Scot seems to go through a lengthy metamorphosis, from the fully tab-and-slot tinprinted original with MR tender, to the addition of smoke deflectors, coal rails, then the high-sided Stanier tender and soldered construction with engraved nameplates, from crimson lake livery to all-black in its final form by 1952. But even the late post-war versions like mine still have tabbed splashers (but soldered up).

View attachment 259943

My list may be out of sequence, and where exactly the date/hinge points for each variant are is a puzzle, although we could probably make a guess.

As far as the B17 goes, I think there must have been two batches. One for "Arsenal", the first to be listed in the 1937 catalogue. And the second for "Melton Hall", perhaps in the following year. Interestingly, both variants occur with the 16 spoke boss-plate driving wheels, so there seems to have been no progression in wheel types from one batch to the next (I am assuming that the 16 spoke engines are original equipment, as I can't imagine anybody retrofitting earlier wheels to a later engine). The snag is, my online photo samples are exclusively of electric drive models - I can find no clockwork examples - so the clockwork versions may have had the later type wheels. Perhaps.

Which leaves us with another puzzle with the Vectis "Arsenal" - is it what it purports to be?

John

Hi John

You are possibly right about there being two batches of B17 models. Retro-fitting the earlier type wheels would require rebuilding the motor to substitute different axles (possible but significant work) or swapping the motor (not difficult). The problem with any model that has been previously ‘collected’ is some alterations are difficult or impossible to detect. Such as swapping the motor rather trying to replace a broken spring or ratchet. And virtually nothing from pre-WW2 coming onto the second hand market is now an ‘attic find’ or grandad’s train. The first owner of anything made before c.1930 will probably be long dead. In fact, even the first owner of something made in the late 1940s is going to be 90+. So anything from much before 1950 now offered for sale has most likely been in someone’s collection.

I think there were four phases of 0 Gauge Royal Scot production:

The original bright red lithographed model with the very plain Fowler tender. (There was an uncatalogued super-detailed version I believe enhanced at Ships Models, but the regular catalogued model stayed unchanged through the production period).
The late 1930s hand painted version. Soldered Stanier tender. The loco body as per the lithographed version but with soldered joints and smoke deflectors added. Engraved nameplates.
The post-WW2 black version. Exactly as the late ‘30s model except for the livery.
The rebuilt version in BR green.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

The problem with any model that has been previously ‘collected’ is some alterations are difficult or impossible to detect. Such as swapping the motor rather trying to replace a broken spring or ratchet. And virtually nothing from pre-WW2 coming onto the second hand market is now an ‘attic find’ or grandad’s train. The first owner of anything made before c.1930 will probably be long dead. In fact, even the first owner of something made in the late 1940s is going to be 90+. So anything from much before 1950 now offered for sale has most likely been in someone’s collection.

Martin

This is a very good point, and you have summarised the problem well. The Vectis B17 is "from a deceased estate, so there is no information to be gleaned" - a reply to my enquiry from the auction house. Not that I expected any leads, but it was worth a try.

On the other hand, sometimes amazing things happen. My 1889 Martin 0-28 guitar had been in the same family since new in Baltimore, Maryland, until I purchased it in 2001. So I am the second owner!

John

 

[40057]

Martin

This is a very good point, and you have summarised the problem well. The Vectis B17 is "from a deceased estate, so there is no information to be gleaned" - a reply to my enquiry from the auction house. Not that I expected any leads, but it was worth a try.

On the other hand, sometimes amazing things happen. My 1889 Martin 0-28 guitar had been in the same family since new in Baltimore, Maryland, until I purchased it in 2001. So I am the second owner!

John

We can be quite sure the B17 that Vectis have is from a collection. Only a collector would go to Chris Littledale for a restoration. We will probably never know if the mech is the original. Did you ask Vectis if there is a serial number on the loco rear coupling?

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

Did you ask Vectis if there is a serial number on the loco rear coupling?

Hello Martin

I have a set of detail photos from Vectis, and there is no serial number underneath the 'D' shaped coupling on the loco.

John

 

[40057]

Hello Martin

I have a set of detail photos from Vectis, and there is no serial number underneath the 'D' shaped coupling on the loco.

John

Well, there definitely should be one somewhere on a loco of that quality.

Martin

 

[40057]

Well, there definitely should be one somewhere on a loco of that quality.

Martin

A screen shot from an e-Bay listing. Just visible ‘31’ on the D hook of a pre-war Duchess.



Martin

 

[John R Smith]

Martin

Sadly, I can see nowt on the "Arsenal" from Vectis -



Unless the paint is very thick, perhaps. These numbers must be from within a batch, I suppose.

John

 

[40057]

Martin

Sadly, I can see nowt on the "Arsenal" from Vectis -

View attachment 259989

Unless the paint is very thick, perhaps. These numbers must be from within a batch, I suppose.

John

I believe there is a single number series for each type, so numbers were not repeated if there was a second batch. Not quite that simple in that the 5712 Jubilees and the derived Black 5 (same model but no splashers) I think are in one number series. There is no distinction between clockwork and electric. My Duchess (33) and my friend’s (16) are both clockwork. No.31 on eBay a couple of years ago was electric.

Martin

 

[40057]

A further update on my wall. I have filled in the small gaps where the stone string course was not a perfect fit with the brick work, and covered the heads of the moulding pins used to secure the string course in place. No photo, as it doesn’t look much different to photos posted previously. I hope to find time to add the coping tomorrow.

The progress today was the arrival in the post of some of the adverts that I intend fastening to the wall. I have bought these from a friend who trades in vintage models and toys.

The wall will be positioned just south of Cairnie Junction station, about a scale 50 feet from the running line. So trains will be travelling slowly and adverts would be easily seen and read by passengers. Clearly adverts with very small size wording wouldn’t work in the location. So I have been looking for adverts with either just a product name or short slogan and small enough to fit between the brick piers. These are the six I got today:



The Wills’ advert is Mills (Milbro) from after WW2. The others I believe are all Bassett-Lowke from the 1920s or earlier. They are all lithographed tinplate. The ‘Bassett-Lowke’ advert I am sure is fictitious, the others accurately reproduce enamel adverts of the period.

The adverts are interesting objects in their own right and very much historic model railway items. They will certainly make my wall more attractive and add to the period look I want for the layout.

Martin

 

[40057]

A significant advance with my wall today. This morning:



String course in place with gaps filled and adjacent paintwork touched in as necessary. But no coping.

Now:



Sorry about the poor photo in artificial light. The coping is glued and nailed in place. A tricky job because the wall has developed a slight curve along its length. So the coping had to be bent to follow the curvature as it was nailed down, using moulding pins every three inches or so. The coping is 3 mm X 12 mm walnut strip.

As can be seen, there is a gap under the coping in places — which I will fill. There will probably then be some paint repairs needed on the topmost courses of bricks. After that weathering.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

Hello Martin

A bit more research on the B17s. In June 2024, Special Auction Services sold this "Arsenal", which despite being (in my opinion) somewhat rough and with black wheels (when they should be green) still sold for £2,100 hammer -



The interesting point is that this one did have a serial number, but indistinct, as per the description -

"Bassett lowke 0 Gauge Rare 4-6-0 Loco & Tender LNER lined green Sandringham/Football class B17 'Arsenal' No.2848, 3-rail electric. Some paint rubbing to the top of the cab roof with the under colour of green coming through and over polishing to the Locomotive body overall and Tender sides. There is an undistinguishable number to the underside of the Locomotive draw bar bracket. Few of these Locomotives were produced by Bassett Lowke, G in Reproduction box" (My italics)

So now it looks as if the B17s did indeed have numbers under the 'D' coupling, and the one on the Vectis example may have been lost when Chris repainted it, perhaps.

John

 

[40057]

Hello Martin

A bit more research on the B17s. In June 2024, Special Auction Services sold this "Arsenal", which despite being (in my opinion) somewhat rough and with black wheels (when they should be green) still sold for £2,100 hammer -

View attachment 260180

The interesting point is that this one did have a serial number, but indistinct, as per the description -

"Bassett lowke 0 Gauge Rare 4-6-0 Loco & Tender LNER lined green Sandringham/Football class B17 'Arsenal' No.2848, 3-rail electric. Some paint rubbing to the top of the cab roof with the under colour of green coming through and over polishing to the Locomotive body overall and Tender sides. There is an undistinguishable number to the underside of the Locomotive draw bar bracket. Few of these Locomotives were produced by Bassett Lowke, G in Reproduction box" (My italics)

So now it looks as if the B17s did indeed have numbers under the 'D' coupling, and the one on the Vectis example may have been lost when Chris repainted it, perhaps.

John

Good morning, John.

The SAS Arsenal is indeed not in great condition, though that seems to be usual with these B17s. Odd really, considering how much they cost when new. Should always have been looked after. I assume the mech has been changed (see earlier discussion), rather than just the wheels. Not much point in a serial number you can’t read.

I would say there will always be a serial number on such models, but it will not always be on the D-shaped coupling.

As for the Vectis B17, I had another look at the photo you posted. I think the D coupling is a replacement as it is not quite the usual shape (cf. the Duchess photo I posted).

The B17 is a scarce thing and they always sell for high prices. Good luck if you decide to bid at Vectis.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

Hello Martin

I assume the mech has been changed (see earlier discussion), rather than just the wheels.

Agreed, and you will notice the bogie wheels are not original either.

The B17 is a scarce thing and they always sell for high prices. Good luck if you decide to bid at Vectis.

I think B17s are a bit out of my league. But it is nice to dream . . .

My big engine, the Royal Scot, was also an SAS sale. In this instance I took your very good advice, and bought the dirty one (apropos a post on buffer stops a while back). The Scot was absolutely filthy, but I could see that there was no damage. So I got it for £270 including premiums. It took me two weeks to clean it up, but now she is the pride of our shed.

John

 

[40057]

It has always been my intention to keep the time period for Rivermead Central a bit vague. And the geographical location. Essentially this is because, owing to a lack of self control, I have vintage models from many different railway companies and ranging in date from pre-WW1 to 1950s. So by keeping the permanent fixtures on the layout non-specific, I should be able to run any of my trains in appropriate surroundings. At least, that was the plan.

It was never going to work. So far, nothing has been installed on the layout that is time or place specific. OK, the buildings are red brick, so some areas are now unlikely, but red-brick buildings occur very widely. The Benham’s factory office has a date stone for 1902, and the building has some weathering. But it would pass for anytime between 1915 and 1960.

But, in an unexpected way, I have reached a decision point on time period. I was carefully recovering tinplate adverts from derelict, beyond repair, vintage buildings this afternoon. For use on my wall, obviously. I have two of these:



Am I going to put an SR advert on the wall? I had always envisaged tilting different parts of the layout towards different time periods. Much as the North Yorkshire Moors Railway has stations set pre-WW1, post-WW1 but still NER, 1930s and 1950s. If I use the SR advert on my wall, Cairnie Junction is set post-grouping. I was going to have to take that decision at some point, but I thought it was well into the future. Of course, I can put the decision off by simply not putting an SR advert on this wall at this time.

One relevant question here relates to signals. For practical reasons, I am more or less resolved on using at least some Bassett-Lowke upper quadrant signals at Cairnie Junction. I don’t know when upper quadrant signals were first used. Can anyone tell me, please? Because if upper quadrant signals will fix the time period as, say, 1930s or later, I might as well use one of the SR adverts on the wall.

Thank you in advance for any advice!

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

I don’t know when upper quadrant signals were first used. Can anyone tell me, please? Because if upper quadrant signals will fix the time period as, say, 1930s or later, I might as well use one of the SR adverts on the wall.

Martin

I think that broadly speaking, UQ signals are a post-Grouping thing. Therefore on the LMS, LNER and SR (not the GWR of course). All the companies had their own variants of post design, arm length etc, but as you and I are using standard B-L signals we don't have to worry about that. The B-L UQ ones probably look most like a retrofit arm on a LNWR post, I suppose. So your UQ signals will be perfectly fine for a 1930s setting.

John

 

[John R Smith]

Hello Martin

Further thoughts on signals. My experience is that you can happily mix up LQ and UQ signals even within the same station limits, as in many places the old LQ ones lingered on. On my patch, there were several examples of old LSWR LQ signals still in use on the North Cornwall and other SR lines in Devon right to the end in 1967. A favourite of mine was a very nice LQ downside platform starter at Exeter Central, which was still in use in the 1970s.

Your "South for Sunshine" sign seems to be a Hailey Models thing - perhaps because they were based in Brighton?

John

 

[40057]

Hello Martin

Further thoughts on signals. My experience is that you can happily mix up LQ and UQ signals even within the same station limits, as in many places the old LQ ones lingered on. On my patch, there were several examples of old LSWR LQ signals still in use on the North Cornwall and other SR lines in Devon right to the end in 1967. A favourite of mine was a very nice LQ downside platform starter at Exeter Central, which was still in use in the 1970s.

Your "South for Sunshine" sign seems to be a Hailey Models thing - perhaps because they were based in Brighton?

John

Hi John

I well remember the LQ down starter at Exeter Central. It couldn’t be replaced I assume because of sighting issues or physical obstruction that meant an UQ was not feasible. There was a LQ signal half-way down one of the long platforms at Aberdeen which survived I guess for the same reason. The Exeter Central down starter is the only LQ LSWR signal I remember in service.

Yes, LQ and UQ signals can be mixed for anytime between 1930ish and the 1960s, a common occurrence IRL during that period. I will need to use both types on Rivermead Central.

Martin

 

[40057]

I have answered my own question about the introduction of upper quadrant signals by searching on the Net. 1926, apparently. But other changes at around the same time — yellow replacing red for distant arms starting c.1920 and required after 1925. The first 3-aspect colour lights in 1923.

Given the signalling equipment I have, and what I am likely to find, the signalling for most of Rivermead Central is going to represent sometime after c.1930. What I would like to do is have part of the layout where all the signals are lower-quadrant semaphores. This could still be post-1930, but it could be pre-grouping. Especially, if I can avoid distant signals in this area, so side-step the question of whether the distant arms are yellow or red. I don’t think that should be too difficult.

So having established the facts, I need to identify where my lower-quadrant-semaphores-only area could be. I need to take into account what signals would be required but also practical considerations. For instance, colour light signals are compact and less of a problem to reach over to stop a train or wind a locomotive. The Bassett-Lowke upper-quadrant signals don’t need to be linked to a signal box as they will stay in either position if operated by hand.

I will need a plan now if my ongoing construction work is going to fit appropriately into an overall scheme.

Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Am I going to put an SR advert on the wall? I had always envisaged tilting different parts of the layout towards different time periods. Much as the North Yorkshire Moors Railway has stations set pre-WW1, post-WW1 but still NER, 1930s and 1950s. If I use the SR advert on my wall, Cairnie Junction is set post-grouping. I was going to have to take that decision at some point, but I thought it was well into the future. Of course, I can put the decision off by simply not putting an SR advert on this wall at this time.

I think you should display the advert and have the time period somewhere around 1923-24. At the time of grouping locomotives, rolling stock, etc were not repainted overnight and photographic evidence exists of LBSCR D tanks running in Marsh umber in 1929. Therefore one can deduce the pre-grouping liveries could be seen for at least six years after 1923.

From the amount of tinplate stock you appear to have (observed through this thread) it seems they are from various years of production which provides a nice operational historical display of the items manufactured over the years. Displaying the signs will also replicate this.

On the other hand rule 1 applies.