Nick Dunhill's Workshop. Victorian Models GWR no 34

[Nick Dunhill]

Hi Ian
I'm up to professional build number 45, and most have been clients who have bought a kit and simply want it building. It's not an unreasonable assumption when you buy a kit that it is fit for purpose. Somewhere in the region of your number 1. In my experience the majority of kits are closer to your number 2. There is an expectation gap that need not exist.

Not unreasonably a client will expect an estimate for building a model in advance. And, by experience, I can give a reasonable figure. The problem is that you can't anticipate where the kit lies between number 1 and 2 until you're building it. The difference between 1 and 2 can be x2 or even x3 price, and often there's a shock in store.

A lot of my job has become managing expectations, and I got burned a few times in the early days, spending many hours scratchbuilding my way round kits that are wrong and/or unbuildable.

I just couldn't send this kit to the painter knowing it was so far out. But I will have worked for a couple of days for nowt. I blame very poor design, perhaps the designer will offer me some financial recourse, but I doubt it. They shoud withdraw the kit from the market and fix it before selling any more.

At least the client will get what they paid for.

 

[Bigjohn]

Looking at those rather large “buckets of bits” etched kits seem a rather expensive way to buy metal sheet. As an observer I wonder what the differential would be between a bespoke model and an etched kit construction. The major advantage/ disadvantage is probably the rivet detail. But as a life long scratchbuilder,60 plus years,that’s my favourite part of the build. As an amateur my time is my own. Not so with a professional builder!!!
BigJ

 

[Nick Dunhill]

Well Bigjohn, as you will know scratchbuilding is a very time intensive thing. I haven't made a pure scratchbuilt loco for ages professionally. The Charity Build I am currently doing is a pure scratchbuilt effort.

From a commercial point of view my cheapest jobs are things like an Agenoria kit for a little industrial tank. The kits are very good, and other than making replacement saddle tank skins, they're pretty straightforward. With a few minor upgrades they take IRO 75 hrs.

A sort of mid range job would be something like a Connoisseur tank, maybe with some brightwork and 3D upgrades at 130 hours.

Tender engines usually come in around 200 to 250 hours, again with a few upgrades inside the cab and footplate. Higher end for a loco with Walschearts motion.

You can add a weeks work for inside motion, Stephenson, Joy etc, so IRO 40 hours, and perhaps more if the chassis needs a mod to accept it.

A scratchbuilt loco would be around 4-500 hours worth of labour.

I charge £23.50/hr. As I mentioned in my previous post I got burned a couple of times doing fixed price deals on loco kits that turned out to be junk, so never again!

I'm looking forward to going to one of the scrap metal dealers in the city and weighing all the scrap brass and nickel silver in those bins. It'll be a sunny summer day and afterwards I will take a motorcycle ride to one of the gastro pubs in the nearby Peak District and have a meal commensurate with the value of scrap brass on the day. Somewhere between a slap up meal and a bag of chips!

 

[Dave Holt]

So rubbish kits can produce an excellent result - if not a model.
Dave.

 

[Nick Dunhill]

There's 17 kg of mixed brass and today's price in Sheffield is 3.40/kg. So about £55 to 60.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

What I find a problem with some of these so called kits is the fact that the proprietors still get asked back to exhibitions as if there is nothing wrong with the product. I feel sorry for the guys just starting out in model building who think they've grabbed a bargain and just obtained a box of s**t !
This is where the Guild ( I'm not a member ) falls down !

Col.......that wasn't a rant but could have turned into one

 

[simond]

Said the same thing for years. It’s really not fair on the new guy. Though I suppose it’s a rite of passage. My 1366 most certainly was.

 

[Renovater]

A scratchbuilt loco would be around 4-500 hours worth of labour.

I charge £23.50/hr.

500 x £23.50=not cheap.....Colin.

 

[Nick Dunhill]

I am on the Technical Committee of the Guild and we are constantly asked to compile lists of kits, their quality and buildability etc....

The Board of the Guild vetoed this, as they get hall fees from traders attending shows, and didn't want to p**s them off.......or get embroiled with litigation.

I certainly agree strongly with you though. If I were setting out I'd buy a cheap kit to dip my toe. I might end up with a Connoiseur or Agenoria and be ok on the other hand I might end up elswhere, and that would be the end of my building adventure.

Luckily there's quite a lot of guidance/help in forums like this one. All hail.......

 

[Nick Dunhill]

No Colin it isn't. But it is skilled work, and a lot cheaper than a plumber, or a mechanic etc etc.......

How much would you expect to earn for 3 months work?

 

[Eastsidepilot]

500 x £23.50=not cheap.....Colin.

Worth every penny !

 

[40057]

I am on the Technical Committee of the Guild and we are constantly asked to compile lists of kits, their quality and buildability etc....

The Board of the Guild vetoed this, as they get hall fees from traders attending shows, and didn't want to p**s them off.......or get embroiled with litigation.

I certainly agree strongly with you though. If I were setting out I'd buy a cheap kit to dip my toe. I might end up with a Connoiseur or Agenoria and be ok on the other hand I might end up elswhere, and that would be the end of my building adventure.

Luckily there's quite a lot of guidance/help in forums like this one. All hail.......

I am not a member of the Gauge 0 Guild but I can absolutely see why they would not be prepared to ‘approve’ or ‘not approve’ kits offered by traders. How ‘bad’ would a kit have to be to be classified as no good? I assume some are completely perfect, some are really awful but many are somewhere between. And how could kits be compared as like for like so a consistent bench mark was used? It’s impossible. So some kits of very similar overall quality would, inevitably, get a different rating. Very unfair on some traders! It could put someone out of business. There would be endless disputes between traders and the Guild and between kit purchasers and the Guild. “I bought a kit the Guild said was OK but messed up building it. That must be the Guild’s fault!”

It might be a nice idea to have an independent rating system for kits. But you would not want to be the person or organisation operating it. And it couldn’t be done fairly, so best not done at all.

 

[simond]

Basic criteria such as having the right number of the key parts (rather than two left hand sets of valve gear) might be reasonably easy to judge objectively.

But it’s certainly the case that some kits will be buildable by a novice and some will require skills and patience that few possess.

And most will be somewhere in between

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Only two categories needed for kits.
'Goes together'
'Doesn't go together'

 

[40057]

Sure, two sets of left-hand parts is wrong. No debate.

But what about, fits together perfectly but the part is 2mm too short versus requires a lot of fettling and adjustment to get it to go together but if done right the result is correct scale size. Neither is perfect. Some would rather have the first imperfection, others the second. Accurately quantifying and comparing the overall relative merits of two kits, even if of quite similar prototypes, is effectively impossible. And the person attempting the comparison may make errors too — like not spotting a part being the wrong size or shape.

I can absolutely see why the Guild won’t give an opinion on kits. Very wise. And if someone wants to publish a list, they’ll need a thick skin, good lawyers and no wish to ever attend another model railway exhibition.

 

[Nick Dunhill]

Miles better. Worth the effort.

 

[Nick Dunhill]

I can absolutely see why the Guild won’t give an opinion on kits. Very wise. And if someone wants to publish a list, they’ll need a thick skin, good lawyers and no wish to ever attend another model railway exhibition.

Or a chunky bribe in Trumpworld?

 

[simond]

Simply publish honest reviews and hope Mr Newby reads them

If Mr Not-Even-Close decides to sue, he’d have to prove one’s review was unfair & dishonest. Nobody can afford the lawyers!

 

[Eastsidepilot]

No regulation I suppose, a little bit like the building trade where you get guys that call themselves builders but couldn't put a pile of Lego bricks together but get employed by someone who has no knowledge of their experience or lack of it and falls foul compared to a qualified tradesman that will have done an apprenticeship, maybe City & Guilds ( there's that word again ) and with some years of experience is getting work through recommendation, perhaps something the 'Guild' could or should do ?

Col.

 

[Genghis]

My two-pennorth as a purveyor of kits.

I completely agree that kits should be buildable into a good representation of the prototype by someone with the requisite skills. But what skill level is required? DJH had a system of grading for ease of construction and there may well be some advantage to this.

The Gladiator range of loco kits now numbers close on 100 kits none of them designed by me as I don’t have the skills necessary to do that. I don’t have the time to build them all so rely on comments from other builders about improvements that could be made to kits. So, for example, the recently introduced Crab kit will shortly include a rectification etch to incorporate improvements suggested by others.

Our range includes kits designed by David Andrews. These mostly go together without issues. The Stanier mogul needs redesigned frames and the Lemon tank needs a larger boiler. We could have the changes made, but there is a cost with this. Would we ever recover that investment? We invested in replacement fireboxes for the Duchess and Princess kits as there is a good turnover of these and the investment can be recovered.

The Adrian Rowland locos go together well. Nick recently built one - the S15 - and posted comments which are useful, but having built one myself I think it is perfectly possible to get a good model building as is. Just a difference of opinion.

The ex Fourtrack range is of its time and we have already commissioned redrawing of some of these. However, some of these designs sell very few kits. Would we sell more if the kit were improved?

Having built the Precursor tank kit, I have withdrawn it from the range. There is alternative kit available and it’s probably a better one. There isn’t the demand for two, so bye-bye.

The ex-Meteor ones – B1, K1 and L1 - are a conundrum. You can get nice models from all of them, but they are not easy builds. I have built the K1 and got an acceptable result. There is an alternative supplier (DMR) but having built the K1/1 from that range I think there are pros and cons for each. The B1 will probably be withdrawn when the Finney kit comes out as that will certainly be a better kit. The L1 is definitely up for redrawing – I am looking forward to Tony Geary’s comments on the build.

Then we have some kits designed by Peter Dobson, including the 8F, U1 and I3. I have just built the 8F. Not the easiest build because clearances around the valve gear are very tight. But that is a reflection of the kit trying to be as accurate as possible. The U1 has minor issues. I enjoyed building the I3.

When we get feedback, we will try and make modifications where it is realistic to do so. Cost is an issue though.

The other issue is quality control. We do try very hard but occasionally duff castings get through. We will always make good. Sometimes we pack an incorrect number of bits. Occasionally that is because the master packing list is wrong. If we don't get tole we cannot update. We get comments about how we should pack kits - believe me mistakes can happen.

Keep the feedback coming.

David