7mm Mickoo's Commercial Workbench

[Jordan]

in fact I have not picked up a single client from Western Thunder the entire time I've been commercially building.

Probably reinforces the fact that none of us realised you were building commercially anyway!!
I never realised that about a lot of what The Guv used to post, either. Of course, I might just be a bit thick.....

 

[Compton castle]

A real war of attrition that build but what a spectacular out come.

 

[oldravendale]

Fantastic job, Mick.

Brian

 

[mickoo]

But it’s absolutely stunning!

It'll be a while before I have the same feeling, the build woes will diminish in time and I find I feel more satisfied when they come back from paint, more when this one is weathered I suspect.

I really like Garratts on the whole, UK or...and maybe more so...SAR so I resent this clunky 1980's rendition, good as the final model is, it could have been so much more if the base model was from a better pedigree. Elevating this kit higher is just impractical and more importantly, not viable cost wise.

 

[mickoo]

Probably reinforces the fact that none of us realised you were building commercially anyway!!
I never realised that about a lot of what The Guv used to post, either. Of course, I might just be a bit thick.....

Now that's something I'd not considered and to be fair i dont view WT as an advertising venue due to being here years before I started commercial work.

I write far more detailed 'modeling' aspects to my posts here as I feel that's what's sits most comfortably with the user base.

A friend wrote privately, there are only so many Oooh's and Aaah's one can write and it's a given I'll bin most of the white metal as well so each build doesnt really bring anything new, just more of the same.

Like you I didn't know the Guv did commercial work, I wish I'd known that in the time I knew him, his advice was always measured and sage.

 

[PhilMortimer]

It'll be a while before I have the same feeling, the build woes will diminish in time and I find I feel more satisfied when they come back from paint, more when this one is weathered I suspect.

I really like Garratts on the whole, UK or...and maybe more so...SAR so I resent this clunky 1980's rendition, good as the final model is, it could have been so much more if the base model was from a better pedigree. Elevating this kit higher is just impractical and more importantly, not viable cost wise.

I too have a fondness for garratts - I think I'm on my 5th model at the moment - 2x Mercian Models Vivian style in O, 1 Backwoods Miniatures NGG16 in OO9 and 2 x backwoods Miniatures K1 in OO9. A VR G42 in OO9 awaits - that is going to be mainly an exercise in scratchbuilding. The Mercian Vivian style garratts have been the hardest and like yours, were a considerable exercise in fixing the issues with a very old hand drawn kit with known issues. I'm pleased with the way they turned out, but when someone asked me to build another, I just couldn't do it!

Now that's something I'd not considered and to be fair i dont view WT as an advertising venue due to being here years before I started commercial work.

I write far more detailed 'modeling' aspects to my posts here as I feel that's what's sits most comfortably with the user base.

A friend wrote privately, there are only so many Oooh's and Aaah's one can write and it's a given I'll bin most of the white metal as well so each build doesnt really bring anything new, just more of the same.

Like you I didn't know the Guv did commercial work, I wish I'd known that in the time I knew him, his advice was always measured and sage.

And in the same manner, your comments and descriptions on how you overcame problems and utilise new skills and technologies to refine a model continues the educational nature of modelmaking started by the Guv that is WT.

 

[adrian]

It'll be a while before I have the same feeling, the build woes will diminish in time and I find I feel more satisfied when they come back from paint, more when this one is weathered I suspect.

I really like Garratts on the whole, UK or...and maybe more so...SAR so I resent this clunky 1980's rendition, good as the final model is, it could have been so much more if the base model was from a better pedigree. Elevating this kit higher is just impractical and more importantly, not viable cost wise.

I too have a fondness for garratts - I think I'm on my 5th model at the moment - 2x Mercian Models Vivian style in O, 1 Backwoods Miniatures NGG16 in OO9 and 2 x backwoods Miniatures K1 in OO9.

So many points to respond to - where to begin. Obviously the Garratt appreciation society for which I'll happily join. One of my regrets was not buying one of the excellent Backwood Miniature kits when they were available. Any itch I suspect will have to be scratch built now.

My first exposure to Garratts was an O-gauge live steam loco, coal fired, that my Dad had at one point. It was a 4-6-2--2-6-4 loco based on the New Zealand Garratt.



It was built by a father and son "The Parkers" in the early 1950s but it was an incredible piece of engineering, If I remember correctly they built it with Baker valve gear rather than the prototype Walschaerts I suspect because it avoided the sliding link block.

 

[mickoo]

Likewise I never got around to the Backwoods NGG16, it looked good but I've heard they were a handful to build and not that accurate in some areas, Nick built one and it turned out lovely but I had to do some etches for him to help it and it took a lot of his time to scratch and sort other areas.

I've seen Nicks....several times....and it looks lovely, but is a little twee for me, the next size up are the Accucraft live steam/electric ones at 1:19 scale, these are a bit big. Ideally you need one in the middle, 1:32 scale running on HO gauge-ish track. A NGG16 or even a GO, GMA or 15F (on O gauge-ish track) in that scale would be lovely, all long term plans left simmering for when I have more time, which right now is not looking promising.

 

[adrian]

With respect to the commercial/professional/amateur builder comments, personally I don't have a problem or issue with the balance. My Dad was a sole trader in notionally 7mm scale so I'm aware of the numerous issues related to making a living out of a hobby and will always support genuine traders who produce quality products for the modeller. There are several contributors to the forum who build to commission and have commercial outlets and I am happy to advertise their work as I think they need all the support we can give.

Likewise the contribution from yourself and others provide a welcome inspiration for us all, posts from yourself, Rob, Nick, Tom, Neil, Warren et al who make the time and effort to explain to us hobbyists how you achieve the results you do are really deeply appreciated.

That said the last thing I want is for members to feel pressured or having to think twice before posting so I'm glad you feel able to articulate those thoughts on the forum and I will respect and support which ever direction you choose to take, just as long as you keep us posted from time to time on what works of art you are creating and your pearls of wisdom on countless subjects.

Brass will always give the best plate work and paint finish, especially high gloss finished engines,

I will take exception at this and disagree - I hate brass - nickel-silver is the best for plate work and superior for paintwork.

As a flip side to my first comment, someone at Guildford said they would never add 3D to a high end model, when asked why they responded, "it makes it look cheap". I'm flattered they though the models were high end in the first place but slightly taken aback that they thought it looked cheap (an obscure throw away phrase because they couldn't vocabulate anything more defining in the moment?).

I've found you should never dismiss comments like that, if one person spoke it then at least ten thought it and the conversation was with someone well established in the hobby and who's voice I keenly respect. It was a cordial conversation and when pressed further to define cheap we ended up with, it's not metal and therein I think lies the rub in the majority of what I (personally endorse and am passionate about) post on WT.

It's funny because I have been attending various exhibitions over the years (decades in fact!) I've met quite a few "respected" and "established" modellers and yes a few were inspirational, Sid Stubbs, Henry Holdsworth and Geoff Holt to name drop a couple but for more than one or two I came away thinking actually I'm not that impressed - more them being very vocal rather than quality of work (won't name names!). I think that what I'm trying to say is that there are some people who I may respect for their work and standing in the hobby but I am also more than happy to dismiss some of their comments, we don't have to agree with all that they say. Just one example I do respect and appreciate the modelling of Raymond Whalley but vehemently reject his eulogisation of the RSU. At the end of the day I hope you just do what you are comfortable with.

p.s. whilst researching for this post (Henry Holdsworth) I stumbled across an old post of mine where I decided I was a hobo modeller. It was a nice reminder and I think a most apt description for myself, a hobo modeller

In The Beginning

Early on any Saturday morning, outside a school sports hall or leisure centre somewhere in this country a ritual is enacted. It may not be exactly the same as the one a weekend ago in a different town, but the basic elements will all be there. From a flock of estate cars, hatchbacks, hired vans...

www.westernthunder.co.uk

There will only ever be one JM Garratt in my lifetime, never ever again.

Any future Garratts will be self grown from the ground up, life is to short.

Having seen more than a few kits of that generation I can really relate to that sentiment, having the seen the effort required to build a silk purse from a sows ear than I will not be touching even one kit of it's ilk.

In fact your postings and updates on the 3D printing and other techniques have inspired me on my next couple of projects. Details to follow when I'm comfortable with the progress but it is due to your postings showing what is possible that I have decided to return to my roots and the next projects are going to be scratch built projects. Where previously I would have sourced castings and components for the build I am now back building in nickel-silver ( not brass!) and looking at 3D printed components for chimneys, domes etc. That is your legacy and I thank you for the inspiration.

With much regard & respect

Adrian

 

[Cliff Williams]

Mick I really enjoy your posts and I believe they strike the right balance.

You are leading the way with use of tech to improve existing kits, only really achievable due to commercial sales.

What you are not doing is soliciting sales directly on posts or putting items under “For Sale” on here, which I think is something someone selling commercial lot shouldn’t do, at least without approval from admins.

I look forward to you hopefully continuing with the posts!

 

[mickoo]

Just a quick update on the Bulleids, far too much time spent getting it to go around 5'-6" curves but it does....just.

I'm leaving off all the pipework on the chassis until the end, experience tells me it'll just get buggered up during the rest of the build, plus I need the body on to route the injector and other pipework up from under the cab to the casing.

The casing is all seat of the pants stuff as I have no firm plan of action, just trying what I think will work best and seeing how it pans out, especially the roof section. The side skins are fine but an error in the rivet pattern means they're junk and in the bin and Mk II drawn up. I will temporarily tack one side on to check it physically fits and once happy the revised skins will get posted off.

The smoke box module for the original kit resin casing is woefully small and will need modifying to fill all the gaps where the resin body once was.

 

[simond]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Pencarrow]

Loving the work, please don't stop posting updates. I don't care one jot if it's commercial work. Great modelling is great modelling regardless and you never go into sales mode.

 

[david duxbury]

Great work Mick, Been waiting a while now to see this superb casing and smokebox come together, Excellent!

 

[richard carr]

Mick

So does that have a resin body on top ?

Richard

 

[mickoo]

Mick

So does that have a resin body on top ?

Richard

To be honest, I haven't decided yet, it's all seat of the pants stuff right now, several steps forward then a few back etc.

I've got three choices:-

1: Slice off the Finney7 casing top and fit, that's the easiest but perhaps not the best, there are some aspects of the resin casing I 'personally' don't like, no one else has an issue but I do.

2: Develop a whole new 3D top and print it off, nothing too difficult there as you have full control over both aspects and can tweak to get it just right. You'd have to be careful with orientation to push any layering into areas that can be easily cleaned, plus the recent tests on the VL80 (always a secondary reason for a lot of my dabblings) fine tuned printing large slab like objects and made the process more viable.

3: Work up a set of casing etches in nickel silver and solder them on, that's the Rolls Royce option but by far the hardest to achieve, large areas with etch relief cause the etch to curl, the sides are terrible and will take a lot of care to flatten ripple free. There's also the issue of forming the cant rail bends and roof curvature and keeping it uniform over the full length, any imperfections will show up badly. Having said that I did manage to get a reasonable job on the EM2 test roof but that's only a small panel, for the BLP you'd either use one big one or several smaller ones like the real thing; your problem there becomes one of making adjacent panels match each other.



It may pay to change the roof material to brass which is more easily formed and I am very tempted to 3D print a roof core that will act as a former and support under the thinner metal skin. It may even be possible to develop a 3D plug and mold to help form the roof panels.

Normally I just bend around rods and shaped bits of wood, it's all very caveman and not very NASA; the VL80 tests started me thinking it might be possible to 3D print formers that grip and hold the metal and aid it's forming.

If you use a 3D core under the roof then that'll give the panels the strength and support they need which means you can use a thinner more malleable gauge, it also means you can solder the brass overlays from the kit onto the metal formed roof panels, sticking them to resin has always been problematical in my experience.

If I can find/make a decent tip (there's no 4 mm tip in my GW riveter set up....missing when bought, replacement never arrived) for my riveter I may well decide to simple roll my own spliffs and hand ball the whole roof, I like the idea of that as a skills challenge but I'm under no illusion how hard that will be to achieve. It'll be no easy task, but it does mean I don't have to wait for weeks (latest I heard is Feb delivery dates) over Xmas for PPD to process any art work; and then run the risk of them over/under cooking it and having nearly no raised rivet detail or great big lumps for rivets.

Part of this project is for another client who want's a full nickel silver casing etched up, so I will have to go down that route for that project, but for these two builds on a tighter build schedule I may opt for any of the above.

The round holes in the core roof are already there for the self tappers to hold any resin parts I may use in the roof sections so that planning ahead worked.

Today's task is to strip the whole front end out and narrow the front face by 0.4 mm at the base, then the skins when added will line up perfectly with the cylinder wrappers at that joint, currently they over hang by 0,2 mm each side. the rear bulkhead also needs a tweak, it's 0.2 mm too wide so the casing skin will sit just proud of the cab skin.

 

[Dog Star]

... It may even be possible to develop a 3D plug and mold to help form the roof panels.

Mick,

Whilst not in your league, my Son (aka @Spike) has been printing 3D jigs / formers for folding diverse parts from etches. For example:- simple "slabs" with grooves for folding PW wing rails to the required angle / radius / twist so that 3D crossing chairs are relieved of stress/tension.... and bending jigs for handbrake lever guards with "plug-in inserts" to change the shape of the jig as folding progesses. No obvious reason why your idea cannot be achieved.

regards, Graham

 

[Deano747]

Hi Mick
Simple message: please, please stay on here! I don't think anyone cares about the commercial side but the knowledge gained from your skills and experience is invaluable to some of us less experienced (and experienced) builders!!

Either way, all the best.
Rob

 

[mickoo]

First a disclaimer, not my design, artwork or thunder theft, that goes to another talented member of this parish, I just punt it through the machine and quite frankly I'm impressed.

Every now and again someone sends you a file to test print and my reaction is 'you're having a larf pal', this being a perfect example.

However, a little back and forth, some tweaks to the design, a few compromises on pure scale viz practical production and a bundle of orientation test prints find it staggeringly all works.



There's a little play in the brass tube socket, that's a working gap for the adhesive; it's better to have a small gap here, rather than a tight joint that might stress the base and potentially crack it over time.

All processed at 50 microns and a basic waft with tools and sand paper to get rid of the biggest support artifacts. The smaller details might benefit from a 30 micron print but then the average viewing of these may well be 1 yd or more, in which case the extra time needed to print that might not be worth it.

 

[dibateg]

Inspirational stuff again Mick - thank you for posting!

Tony