Hot linking with a side order of copyright clarification

adrian

Flying Squad
Having had a little quiet time to cogitate on the issue of hot linking images on the forum, I'm going to try a solution which I think should meet everyone’s requirements.

In summary : I propose to re-instate the feature of hot-linked images being cached/copied to the forum, with an opt-out feature for members, and with the proviso that any hot-linked images from third parties must be done with permission of the copyright holder and visible attribution of that copyright.

What does this mean for the members?

For 99.8% of members this doesn’t mean anything as they upload and attach their own photographs to their own posts, these are not hot-linked and you retain copyright of your images. For additional deterrent some members may wish to visibly copyright mark their photographs, as Brian Dale does with Tim Mill’s photographs.

For a dozen or so members it is more convenient for them to host their photographs on a separate hosting platform for example Flickr, they can compile a post offline to be copied to multiple fora, when cutting and pasting the post to WT the images get inserted as hot-links back to the original source. The fact that they own the image copyright and post it under their used-id, then hitting the post/reply button implies permission from the copyright owner. You still have full control and attribution over your images as they are posted under your id and you have the ability to edit and/or delete your posts. The issue of the original complaint essentially was the loss of an automatic update if a hot-linked sourced image was cached on WT. Hence the solution to offer any member an option to opt out of their images being cached on WT. I can define web domains to exclude from the image caching. Thus any images hot-linked from the Templot forum will remain as hot-links. If any other members who use 3rd party image hosting also wish to opt out then a simple PM request to myself is all that is required.

Last for the rare occasion where hot-linking to external images where the copyright is held by a third party then the first consideration is does it constitute “fair dealing”, if it doesn’t meet the fair dealing exception then permission must be sought from the copyright owner and suitable attribution included when making the post on WT. Yes I am fully aware that “technically” for hot-linked images copyright permission is not required, but this is a technicality, it’s a weasel word exemption created by expensive Google lawyers to absolve them of copyright claims from their web scraping. However I consider this does not satisfy the spirit or intention of copyright. Hence on WT I will expect, where possible, users to obtain permission to publish images if not covered by the fair use exceptions, criticism, parody, private study etc stipulated in the link Exceptions to copyright. If you are unsure the question it sets is “how would a fair-minded and honest person have dealt with the work?"


Finally by way of explanation why I’m not keen on hot-linked images and prefer locally cached images.
  • It leaves broken threads with missing images if the remote link fails - either due renaming files, blocking 3rd party hosting, putting up paywalls [Photobucket] or going bust [ Fotopic.net ].
  • It doesn't give the Copyright holder visible recognition if it’s not suitably marked on the photo.
  • Malicious intent - changing an image after posting to damage the image of the forum or embarrass a user. A post with a hot-linked innocent image e.g motorbike might get a few replies about a nice ride, handling etc. This would take on a completely different connotation if the 3rd party later after several replies replaced the innocent motorbike image with a pornographic image or one of Theresa Coffey. [Google The Oatmeal and Huffington Post]
Hopefully we can all get back to a little modelling now.
 
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hrmspaul

Western Thunderer
I prefer hot linking to cache, But saying that what I do dislike is a download that then removes the information I painstakingly put on every photo, including my copyright - as has been done on this site by one individual.

I do accept that hot links can die - yes I was on Fotopic! But it permits a viewer to look at other similar photographs which may be of help or interest.

Paul
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I'm very sorry to hear that, Paul. There's only been a single case of a photo of mine being used without acknowledgement and that was before I started watermarking them. When I took the perpetrator to task he made a fulsome apology which I accepted. Equally someone asked if they could use some of the images for use on another perfectly legitimate site which I refused only because I'd then lose control of what happened to them.

I guess the issue for those of us who want to make our images available for model builders is that there's an element of risk involved. On balance I'd rather my images were used and most people who do so seem to refer back to WT.

Brian
 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
Unfortunately watermarking your photos doesn't necessarily stop others from using them without permission or acknowledgement, and the watermarking can be removed by unscrupulous individuals by cropping or re-editing the image.


Photo BCQ.jpg

An example of mine (the large image above) originally posted some time ago on RMweb (since removed) which has been copied and used on Facebook (the small image above) without my knowledge with the photo cropped at the left hand edge to remove the copyright symbol and my initials. The same individual also used another 3 of mine the same way - well at least 3, there may be more that I haven't found. Facebook do have a process for reporting such matters, which in practice is a complete waste of time and the individual involved thought he had the right to copy any photos he found on the internet and use them exactly as he wanted. There could be no doubt it is the same photo as the pattern of smoke from the two locos is exactly the same, and I know there was nobody standing next to me when I took it ! However if you are a member of Facebook you can add your own comments so all four are now acknowledged to me (by myself) along with a few uncomplimentary comments for the person involved. I should say that I only joined Facebook to add my comments - which are still there, I don't normally use the damm thing.

The illustration above is from Google search, which allows you to refer to any image and it will then find that image or anything similar to it available anywhere on the internet. Possibly useful if you think an image of yours has been used on the internet but you're not sure where. In my case above it came up with the Facebook image first, there were others similar but I've blanked those out.

I don't normally mind others using my photos as the idea of posting photos is so that people can see them and obviously the more the better, but, without going into any legal implications, its a matter of good manners to seek approval from the copyright owner and to acknowledge the original photographer if these are known or at the very least give the original source of the image. After all like building a model a photograph is a work of creation, somebody has taken the time and effort to take it and present it for publication. It may be one taken recently from the platform of a preserved railway with a digital camera (or more likely these days with a mobile phone !) easily repeatable and involving little time or effort. Or on the other hand it may be one taken years ago involving travel, maybe to some remote part of the world, recording an event impossible now to repeat, taken on negative film or slides which require digital scanning and editing to make them suitable for presentation and accompanied by a caption that probably requires some research (that latter usually ignored when the photo is copied) and its only right that all that time and effort should be acknowledged.

For the record I've posted more than 1500 prototype photos on WT, probably far too many. I normally keep my own copies of anything I post and from a rough count some time ago I got up to 1497, so the total is probably now approaching 1600.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
You are absolutely correct, Phil. That's the major reason Tim's and my photos only appear on WT. I recognise that this is not bomb proof - far from it - but there seems to be a general understanding on WT that we acknowledge one another's work. Tim's images are on here because, before he died, it was his brief to me that they should be used on a model railway forum to help create more realistic models. I'm honouring that wish.

Tim's family and I hope that we'll eventually be able to publish these photos more widely - we recognise that there are a lot of "picture books" but some of Tim's images are so good that they deserve a wider audience. I suspect that, when we do that, we'll open some flood gates but we are alert to that probability.

Brian
 

hrmspaul

Western Thunderer
I'm very sorry to hear that, Paul. There's only been a single case of a photo of mine being used without acknowledgement and that was before I started watermarking them. When I took the perpetrator to task he made a fulsome apology which I accepted. Equally someone asked if they could use some of the images for use on another perfectly legitimate site which I refused only because I'd then lose control of what happened to them.

I guess the issue for those of us who want to make our images available for model builders is that there's an element of risk involved. On balance I'd rather my images were used and most people who do so seem to refer back to WT.

Brian
Brian

Thanks. I see now that the photo has been removed, replaced by another simply mentioning the source of the print, instead of simply linking to the original on my site. It is one that has been published in a book. I don't get overly concerned about re-use of my photos, but I do dislike what to me are the important details of what, where and when being removed. Mine is a historical site. It takes me 2 minutes to photograph a train of wagons, and the remainder of the day to prepare them for publishing on the site.

Paul
 
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