Scattergun DCC locos

[mickoo]

Steph, that might be the problem. No idea how to add more power?, does that mean shout at it louder, I usually find shouting at things sometimes helps

I've tried the F6 twice wake up call and nowt doing, so tried again to reprogram CV1, MM comes up with ERR1 which according to the manual means not compatible for programming, why, I've yet to find out.

According to the sticker on the chip, it's a 1033-0V7-16-0 (C) 2007 version.

Best, Mick

 

[mickoo]

3704..??
Did someone buy the AtlasO MP15 in BNSF livery that was on ebay recently, perchance..??

Might have done

Just stuffed the body back on for photos as it's being stripped ready for re-painting, once I find the right colours to ask Doncaster autos for

No fan of QSI, myself, to be honest. Even with DCC Guru Steph's help, the one in my Atlas RS3 doesn't really run as well as I'd like; they seem rather difficult to 'tweak' - my NCE Powercab can't read the mid-range volts CV6 for some reason, so I have no idea if I have re-programmed it or not, & dare I say it, to my ears it doesn't sound particularly like the Alco RS's I've watched on YouTube either. One good point is the horn, which blows Soundtrax Tsunami horn sounds out of the water.
Having just fitted a TCS Wowsound in an Atlas GP35, and been very impressed, I may well replace the QSI decoder with a TCS when they bring out one with Alco sounds (current one is EMD only).

Ok, had a quick trawl for TCS wowsound, and yet again, more jargon and little help really, I'm going to guess you've fitted a HO sound decoder, did you edit yourself or did it come ready done for you. The MP15 has a large piggy back board which the lights and such plug into, as well as the QSI board,
does TCS plug into that or do you need to re-wire or use jump leads, no issues either way.

Finally, I'm struggling to find someone in the UK that stocks TCS (with details about what your actually buying) sound modules, plenty of TCS chips but at £20-30 I'm guessing they are not sound equipped. Where do you get yours from please.

(Addendum just found this page http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommer...oders/wow101diesel-1530-wow-sound-diesel.aspx ) Might be worth a punt, even if I do get this QSI working I have plenty of other projects this can be used for

I have dusted off my EMD spartan cab etch work, I'd already redone a lot of it after the first test run, but with hindsight a material thickness of 0.010" is too thin for the main structure. I'm going to re do it in a large thickness and then just have one small sheet in 0.010" for the finer details, don't like the idea of two etch tools but that's the only logical way forward.

I was surprised to learn the MP15 is a 645 block, I'd hoped it'd be a 567, so to tick that box I need a GP38 really and I do like the sound of GP15's! There's more water to pass under these bridges shortly

 

[Steph Dale]

I get my QSI decoders from Coastal DCC...

 

[mickoo]

I get my QSI decoders from Coastal DCC...

Cheers, they have both TCS and QSI, I note on the QSI tab you choose an engine brand, EMD, GE, ALCO etc, I presume they then come with the range of engines within that brand for you to choose from.

More reading required

 

[Steph Dale]

Yes, in general you select a profile from a number loaded on the decoder.
There is further tailoring and more profiles available if you have the QSI programmer.
Steph

 

[mickoo]

Finally! It's alive, it moves, it has sounds and lights , mind it sounds crap though...... really crap and I'm going to guess a large part of that's due to the crappy speaker in the fuel tank without a sealed box behind it, even so, it doesn't sound like an MP15 at all, in fact it sounds more like a Zanussi washing machine!

There still appears to be some issues, more to do with MM I suspect, it does not appear to trigger the higher F functions, F11 onward, the sound is too loud and F13 does not decrease it, nor can I still program any CV's, tried setting CV51 to 60 (half volume). MM still comes up with ERR1 (not compatible for programming) so cannot program any start or stop speeds or inertia settings at the moment.

I did read somewhere that MM might need a software update to V1.02 or higher, yet my current firmware is already V1.02.

From the MM site if you have these issues

• You want to address decoder functions F13 to F20 (if your decoder supports this, and these are assigned).
• You have to program some problems decoder types of other manufacturers.
• You have more than 10 feedback modules 10787 in use.
• You get when programming in POM mode with the LENZ center the error message "ERR1" at the multiMAUS.
• Although no feedback contacts are pressed into blocks flashing sporadically Rocomotion pink (is) on.

Then you need to update your software....great!

Anyway, it's sort of fixed, for the time being.

The fix? When all else fails, shout loudly at it , well not really

The real fix was quite simple, reset to factory default, to do this you need to pass a magnet across a reed switch glued to the underside of the hood and connected to the chip circuit board, of course I don't have an Atlas magic reset wand (I kid you not, that's what it's called) how remiss of me!

So good old garden shed technology to the fore, whip off the plug, wedge a screwdriver in the socket across the two pins and increase the DC voltage, it won't work on DCC, you'll know when it's reset because it shouts at max volume in it's Borg type voice RESET! which is enough to make you leap out of your skin after days of total silence from it!

Best, Mick

 

[Simon]

That doesn't sound very "back of the class" to me!

Glad you got it working Mick. MM wise the wireless "pro" set up is brilliant I think, although there don't seem to be many (any?) about to buy. My two both came via the Internet split from sets.

Simon

 

[mickoo]

Yes I used a TCS HO decoder with KeepAlive. It's a hard-wire job. Wired the motors in series. The decoder has EMD 567 roots blown and turbo, 645 the same, & 3rd gen (710??). About 30 different horns, 30 or so bells, & other bits'n'bobs I haven't dabbled with yet. Ran pretty well without any CV tweaks; a bit of fine-tuning will smooth it right out.
TCS will be doing an O scale version apparently which I might hang on for to power a single-motor Weaver GP38-2; other than that, I might piggyback an HO one with an NCE D408SR I have.

Jordan, I did look at TCS in depth, are you sure thay have the 645 non turbo, they say they offer four EMD engine types, 567 non turbo, 567 turbo, 645 turbo and 710 turbo, of course the one I need for the MP15 and future GP15 isn't on there, the 12 cyinder 645 non turbo I think their 645 sounds are the 16cyl ones, not the smaller 12cyl ones......until yesterday I didn't even know EMD did a 12cyl 645 , I though the -15 series were roots 567's as that's what they sound closest too I really must get all my 'dark side' notes back out again LOL

Loksound have these sounds and I can't yet find out if QSi does, obviously they think they do as they are supposed to be on this chip here, but at the moment I'm not even remotely impressed with the engine quality, the rest of the sounds are acceptable mind. Even taking into consideration that it's at max volume and a tiny speaker, it stil does not sound like a MP15. I'm going to try a bigger speaker, bigger than will fit in the loco actually, to see if there's any quality here first, before swapping out for another brand

 

[mickoo]

That doesn't sound very "back of the class" to me!

Glad you got it working Mick. MM wise the wireless "pro" set up is brilliant I think, although there don't seem to be many (any?) about to buy. My two both came via the Internet split from sets.

Simon

Trust me, it's very back of the class LOL usually if you poke something long enough something will happen, not always good mind

Once it'd reset I'd accidentally left it at full throttle so as soon as I selected the loco it shot off like a scalded cat, I managed to grab it but it punted the box car off the end of the track, launched it a meter across the floor where it fel gracefully to the ground (gravity is a bitch!) and broke (repairable easily though )

Apparently I need just what you suggest, a Z21 set up I believe it's called, then I can update the handset to V1.04 firmware and hopefully access the higher F functions and program the chip with the MM handset, but, as you say they are hard to come by and on Ebay price out at £200- 300 or so. For that money I could throw this away and buy something that might work a little better? According to Roco, you should only need firmware of V1.02 or higher to solve these problems, which I aready have, so I've no idea why it will not work at the moment.

I can of course program this chip with a SPROGG and decoder pro, but that's no help as it won't solve the lack of higher F function lock out I have with this handset, it solves the loco but not the handset.

 

[DavidinAus]

I saw this thread with "DCC" somewhere in the title and thought that I should look at it. I can tell you that to someone who has no idea where to start, all the SPROGGs and other acronyms are like someone talking in broad Glaswegian - I know it's the same language fundamentally, but that doesn't help!

Just imagine reading this as a less-than-novice:
Yes I used a TCS HO decoder with KeepAlive. It's a hard-wire job. Wired the motors in series. The decoder has EMD 567 roots blown and turbo, 645 the same, & 3rd gen (710??). About 30 different horns, 30 or so bells, & other bits'n'bobs I haven't dabbled with yet. Ran pretty well without any CV tweaks; a bit of fine-tuning will smooth it right out.
TCS will be doing an O scale version apparently which I might hang on for to power a single-motor Weaver GP38-2; other than that, I might piggyback an HO one with an NCE D408SR I have.

Sorry, Jordan!
Anyway, I'd really like to go down the DCC route, with sound as the main attraction, to be honest. Where do I start, though, given the above? I have a simple 12-volt system, with a Garratt and an L&Y pug. I'll soon (!?) have an 8F. Can someone tell me where to read about what I need to do?
(Sorry for the Hijack, Mickoo, but what else would you expect from an [adoptive] Australian?)

David

 

[ZiderHead]

David, I found http://www.wiringfordcc.com/intro2dcc.htm very useful when first trying to get my head around what was possible with DCC. The other pages on the site go into good detail for the wiring side of things.

 

[Steph Dale]

David,
This thread is probably not a good place to start. Most of the info, comment and response had related to QSI decoders, which you're not likely to come across unless you're modelling US outline.
I might suggest my own website although it's a little out of date: http://www.euram-online.co.uk/dcc/dcc.htm

Steph

 

[Steph Dale]

Mick,
Updating the MM shouldn't be a problem, just need to find a friendly Roco dealer or perhaps update through a Lenz system. However, I'm surprised yours won't do those things, I've mine for years and they work fine at the higher functions. I'll have to check what firmware version mine are running.

Steph

 

[mickoo]

I saw this thread with "DCC" somewhere in the title and thought that I should look at it. I can tell you that to someone who has no idea where to start, all the SPROGGs and other acronyms are like someone talking in broad Glaswegian - I know it's the same language fundamentally, but that doesn't help!

Just imagine reading this as a less-than-novice:
Yes I used a TCS HO decoder with KeepAlive. It's a hard-wire job. Wired the motors in series. The decoder has EMD 567 roots blown and turbo, 645 the same, & 3rd gen (710??). About 30 different horns, 30 or so bells, & other bits'n'bobs I haven't dabbled with yet. Ran pretty well without any CV tweaks; a bit of fine-tuning will smooth it right out.
TCS will be doing an O scale version apparently which I might hang on for to power a single-motor Weaver GP38-2; other than that, I might piggyback an HO one with an NCE D408SR I have.

Sorry, Jordan!
Anyway, I'd really like to go down the DCC route, with sound as the main attraction, to be honest. Where do I start, though, given the above? I have a simple 12-volt system, with a Garratt and an L&Y pug. I'll soon (!?) have an 8F. Can someone tell me where to read about what I need to do?
(Sorry for the Hijack, Mickoo, but what else would you expect from an [adoptive] Australian?)

David

David, Hijack more than welcome. Like you DCC for me is the same as 1+1 = 2, however I do program cranes for a living, mainly PLC in Siemens protocol but have done GE and Holec, so I understand the logic, just not the application, in other words, I know how to drive a car, but that does not make me a racing driver.

I did kind of set myself up to fail from the begining, using a loco with unknown DCC faults or issues, a DCC system I'd never even opened the box or used before, when dealing with something like this you need a solid reference point to go back to, I had none.

For some sake of clarity lets break Jordans comments down

Yes I used a TCS HO decoder with KeepAlive.
TSC is a supplier of sound encoded chips, chips come in two types, basic and sound, basic has all the F functions and simple controls and are pretty cheap, sound has all that as well as a sound profile on top and are usuallu four times as expensive.

HO is the scale and size of chip used, bigger engines draw more current so require beefier chips, however if your running a small shunting layout with short trains then it's perfectly feasable to use a 'cheaper' HO chip in an O gauge loco.

KeepAlive, this is a small bolt on pack that keeps power onto the chip in case it gets lost, lets say dirty track. With normal DC operation theres inbuilt motor momentum and general sluggishness to responses, with DCC if you loose the supply for even the smallest fraction the DCC chip turns off and everything resets to zero, worse yet the sounds stop, they don't come back where they were, but come back at zero. The KeepAlive is a bunch of capacitors that keep a supply onto the chip for a few seconds, think of it as a very short duration battery back up that'll last 1-3 seconds.

It's a hard-wire job.
Hard wired means that Jordan has had to solder the leads from the chip into the models existing wiring. Many models come with motherboards (MoBo's) already in them, lights, smoke units, track supply are already wired into these at the factory. If you look at my image above of the circuit boards, the big long lower one is the MoBo and will be on all models, DC or DCC, sound or no sound. Most MoBo's have a set of connectors already in place to accept DCC chips, but you can already imagine, many do not fit many MoBo's so it a case of finding the right supplier of DCC chip to fit to the MoBo....or hardwire. Your models are brass kits I suspect, you will have to hardwire and there are no MoBo's fitted to kits though you might be able to get one that's fitted elsewhere and hot wire it for your application, eitherway, your going to be soldering cables to connect it up, as opposed to just dropping the chip in plug and pray...play style.

Wired the motors in series.
Simple really, two ways to wire motors, series or parallel. Basically if you wire in parallel then what ever voltage you apply to the model will go to each motor, apply 12v and each motor gets 12v, in series the supply is halved, apply 12 v and each motor gets 6, it's a good way of increasing the fidelity of your throttle scale and reducing the speed for shunting etc. Imagine your contoller has 120 steps and 12v is max, that gives 10 control steps per volt of motor control. However if that voltage is now split between two motors what we effectively have is 120 steps over a 6 volt range, that gives you 20 steps per motor volt. You can of course achieve this in the DCC parameters as well....and a whole lot more, but that's the basics.

The decoder has EMD 567 roots blown and turbo, 645 the same, & 3rd gen (710??).
You do not need to concern yourself with this, they are just engine types and as such sound very different, the TCS chip has 'ALL' these sounds already loaded, by simply changing one parameter on the chip selects which ever sound set you want, value for money thats pretty bloody good, as everyone else only supplies one sound set per chip. It does mean that if at some point you sell your GP35 (645 roots) and buy a SD70 (710) you can move the chip over and select the new sound set, no need to buy a new chip or send the old one away to be re blown with the new sound set. Loksound also allow you to do this as well, but you have to collect the sound set off their site and blow it yourself, TCS already have them all on there.

About 30 different horns, 30 or so bells, & other bits'n'bobs I haven't dabbled with yet.
Fairly obvious what all that means

Ran pretty well without any CV tweaks; a bit of fine-tuning will smooth it right out.
CV's are the parameters already on the chip, you can tweak these or ammend to suit your style or wishes, there are several ways to adjust CV's, some controllers allow you to do it off the bat, the MultiMaus handset is one (though mine does not at the moment) and I'm sure there are others, but I've not researched that bit yet, or you can use a dedicated programming kit like SPROGG.

A basic DCC set up is......handset-base unit-track-loco......, the handset mainly drives the loco and make it do things, some handsets can change the parameters, eg MaultiMaus etc.

A programming set up is.....PC-Interface module-track-loco, in this set up we can change all the parametrs we want but not drive the loco. SPROGG is an interface module.

TCS will be doing an O scale version apparently which I might hang on for to power a single-motor Weaver GP38-2;
Back to motors and size of chips, a single motor in a heavy loco will require a more powerful chip, my MP15 is a single motor and the QSI chip is matched to that power requirement, if I opt for a replacement TCS HO chip I will have to make sure the motor does not overload the chip at full power, to do that I need to set my test meters up and measure running and stall currents tomake sure I do not fry the HO chip.

other than that, I might piggyback an HO one with an NCE D408SR I have.
I have NFI what a NCE D408SR is LOL, I'm sure google will let me know tonight when I look for it.

So, back to your questions, read the web, read some more, be prepared to be confused so go and read some more, I've lost three whole evenings to DCC browsing and fault finding, it takes time, there is no short cut that I've found.

For your models if you want sound then I think a UK firm would suffice, the only one I know off the top of my head is SWD but I'm sure there are others, SWD offer chips with sounds already set up on them and will probably run out of the box pretty well. There are plenty of UK steam sound users here who can point you in the right direction for sound sets and suppliers, far better than I can advise.

As to which control system you want, that's as simple as apples and pears, I choose the MaultiMaus simply because the handset can adjust parameters if required and I would not need a programming set up, it appears I may have been a tad naive in my initial thought process.

Like you I'm struggling to make head and tale of what systems are out there, what does what and what do you need to buy to do what.

 

[mickoo]

Mick,
Updating the MM shouldn't be a problem, just need to find a friendly Roco dealer or perhaps update through a Lenz system. However, I'm surprised yours won't do those things, I've mine for years and they work fine at the higher functions. I'll have to check what firmware version mine are running.

Steph

Steph, this is deepest Suffolk here, Roco dealerships are a bit thin on the ground combines and tractors we're well catered for, but toy trains......

According to Roco, V1.02 should suffice but here it's apparently not, this does seem to be a bit of an issue with others as well, especially related to O gauge QSi decoders, there's all sorts of witches spells out there to solve this but overall the general feeling is to update the handset to at least V1.02 or higher.

Ordinarily I'd say it was me not selecting the higher functions correctly, but it will also not adjust any CV's, which leads me to think it's a little more than 'operator' error, though I gladly conceed that'll probably be a good proportion of it

I've heard the Lenz system is compatable, I'll have to look into that system and try to work out what I need to get this going....or simply just bloody replace it, if time were money, I've already spent twice what a new full system would cost in messing around trying to get this one working. Primaily I just want to turn the bloody thing down! It's loud enough to use in a 5" gauge model at the moment LOL

Anyway, I'll carry on tonight inbetween bouts of W1 CAD work to try and get it working or find out what I need to get it working

 

[Steph Dale]

Mick,

I've just tested my Multimaus handsets - I've got one at v1.00 and one at v1.02. I know I've had no trouble operating QSI decoders (whether in Jordan's Atlas '0' RS1 or my various Broadway, P2K, Intermountain and Atlas locos), but can't say categorically which handset it would have been on! Programming is another matter; the decoders take a bit of power to program due to the high capacitance of the circuit. Programming boosters are available, but I'd go straight for a SPROG as the QSI CV scripting is somewhat obtuse to do through a normal command station.

For the higher functions on the MM; you are holding down the shift key before hitting the function button, then releasing the shift key aren't you?

In terms of updates etc, to the decoder I've just checked and you've got a current(ish) Atlas Quantum2 (v7) sound file/chip installed. It would be possible to re-blow the sound with an upgraded sound profile. But you'd need the Quantum programmer to do it. It might be worth it - the P2K GP30s and Broadway RSD15s I have sound bloody awesome and are the only decent versions of that type - they do seem to need the later (v7) chip in them to run well though. Oh and well done on the re-set - you're obviously finding your way through the manual!

Steph

 

[mickoo]

Steph, the MM does seem to control the loco now in all aspects except the higher function range so from that aspect its all good. I've tried several different ways to trigger the higher values but will try your method exactly later today.

I did do some browsing for DCC systems etc and of all the handsets I liked the Roco one the best, I've tried the gauge master ones which are ok but the maus feels better, upshot is to upgrade it'll have to be the Roco Z21 or with some fiddling the Lenz base station.

A sprogg is a given and I looked in the QSi manual and know what you mean about CV layout, hardly intuitive lol.

I think if the volume is lowered and a better speaker fitted with sound box this sound set might just pass muster but an update would be nice, didn't see that on the QSi site but then wasn't looking directly for that at the moment.

Read the manual! Nahh it wasn't in the QSi manual but on a slip of paper in the loco box, it's only a reed switch but a fridge magnet didn't pass muster to begin with so I opted for dock technology and just shorted the terminals

We used to have a diesel hydraulic shunter here on the docks

It's control and gearbox control was via a GE90-30 PLC. The program used to get scrambled every now and again but being as it was all stored on an EPROM it was easy to reload.
But, you had to clense the memory first which was a real pain until we got a tip from the PLC suppliers in Holland, pull the back up battery, pull the processor card off the rack and with a small screwdriver short out two tiny terminals just visible on the MoBo through a tiny hole in the casing.....instant memory dump Refit processor card, apply power and it'd then auto read the program from the EPROM and bingo all the engine controls worked again.

The similarities between that and the MP15 were not lost on me last night lol

Of course to make sure it all worked we had to drive it, usually under the watchful eye of the 'real' driver though, but for a while H4323 was printed on my Port driving license.

This was one of the last times I saw her, by this time she was redundant and had been laid up for months and would leave soon for pastures new, I've no idea where she went but she was a beast and rebuilt especially for the Port, but in the end was too powerful for her own good, she'd easily drive along with little effort with her brakes full on. This finally killed her as it was found that driving through the brakes had put extra force on the axle boxes and they were shot to pieces and I think a couple of springs had collapsed as well.

 

[Steph Dale]

If you're going the Roco route to upgrade then watch out a little - the z21 is not the same as the Z21 (note Capitalisation). The latter unit has the connectivity to wi-fi, etc, but is much more expensive. It genuinely is worth considering going the Lenz route; there is no 'fiddling' you just plug the two together, but if you go for the Z21 I will be very interested to know what you make of it.

Steph

 

[richard carr]

Mick

If you are going for a SPROGG there are 2 versions the standard one and a high current one. You will need the high current one the ordinary one only puts out 250mA and its not enough to test run a Heljan diesel and I can't imagine for one minute it will power a US one . The standard one will do the programming and read the CVs etc but you won't be able to use Decoder pro to test run the changes you will need to switchback to a hand set, and thats a pain when you a setting up a motor.



Richard

 

[mickoo]

If you're going the Roco route to upgrade then watch out a little - the z21 is not the same as the Z21 (note Capitalisation). The latter unit has the connectivity to wi-fi, etc, but is much more expensive. It genuinely is worth considering going the Lenz route; there is no 'fiddling' you just plug the two together, but if you go for the Z21 I will be very interested to know what you make of it.

Steph

Steph, I didn't know there were two z/Z21's but it'd be the expensive one I'd aim for, not getting caught again with limited options from half way houses. Both the Lenz and Z21 are viable options, I don't really like the look of the Lenz controllers if I'm honest, but that's my personal preference based purely on my own visual ego, so it's nice to know the MultiMaus will/should plug and play. It's almost as cost effective to get a whole set up than it is to try and get the LZV100 terminal on it's own by the look of things.

I played some more earlier and I think your right on the power side, when I try to program the CV's on the QSi I can hear a faint clicking coming from the speaker, almost like a power cut sort of thing.

I played again with the F11 and F12 functions using your tips above, still a no go so decided to dig a little further, F11 is front number boards on and off, the main lights work and brighten with direction of travel and dim when stationary, but, there's no actual distinct LED for the front number boards (it's all striped down now so easy to see the light circuit boards), just a single headlight one.
Thus F11 may be working but no LED to give a visual result. In addition, F11 is not available with Ditch or Mars operating. The MP15 does not have either Mars or Ditch lights....but....the cab console light is plugged into the Ditch light socket on the MoBo by Atlas. It can't go anywhere else as it has a unique plug that only fits that socket. So, F11 may not work because there's no LED to light and the cab console light is being used instead of or as a Ditch or Mars light function.

Which brings us neatly to F12, cab console light, this does not work so digging a bit deeper it looks like a simple lamp encased in the drivers console, unplugging it and applying pure DC 12v should give something, it does, the merest hint of a glimmer. There's a bridge rectifier on the power side of things, converting 18V AC to 17V DC so I'm guessing the MoBo's main power bus works off 17V DC, the LEDs will need a much lower supply, but a simple filament lamp will not, a 12V lamp will be too small so I'm guessing a 20V is installed, which explains why it's so dim on just 12V DC. either way it should at least glow gently with F12, it does not...hmmpphh.

I've not read the QSi tome in detail but it wouldn't surprise me if these two function might need enabling with a CV change, though I would expect them to work on factory default settings if I'm honest.

Richard, I didn't know you could test run trains with the SPROGG set up, that's an interesting snippet of info SPROGG 3 it is then