AJC
Western Thunderer
They are excellent value (the tank wagons similarly), if a slightly obscure, though attractive, prototype.
Adam
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4mm An EM Workbench: Mineral allsorts
- Thread starter AJC
- Start date
They are excellent value (the tank wagons similarly), if a slightly obscure, though attractive, prototype.
Adam
Ex-GER Van by Oxford
Unfitted Project: LMS wagon browns
AJC
Western Thunderer
Since I’m stuck at home ill (yes, with that) and the two-year-old human (likewise), a work in progress. This is the second of the two dia. 1666 which is being finished in replanked and ratty LMS brown, suitably relettered.
The treatment thus far is Halfords camouflage brown (which isn’t so very far away from the Precision version of LMS wagon brown), with weathered wood colours applied on random planks and on the solebars. Why solebars shed paint so readily I have no idea, but it’s a very noticeable feature of wooden wagons so I’ve replicated it here.
Hand painted black patches and HMRS LMS lettering gets us to this stage.
I’ve picked out the ironwork with a mix of matt leather and Humbrol metalcote gunmetal so the impression is about right, but I’ll work back into it later.
Adam
The treatment thus far is Halfords camouflage brown (which isn’t so very far away from the Precision version of LMS wagon brown), with weathered wood colours applied on random planks and on the solebars. Why solebars shed paint so readily I have no idea, but it’s a very noticeable feature of wooden wagons so I’ve replicated it here.
Hand painted black patches and HMRS LMS lettering gets us to this stage.
I’ve picked out the ironwork with a mix of matt leather and Humbrol metalcote gunmetal so the impression is about right, but I’ll work back into it later.
Adam
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Unfitted Project: LMS wagon browns
AJC
Western Thunderer
That’s a good a suggestion as any! I wonder if the oak(?) frames resisted paint in some way that the planking didn’t?
Adam
Unfitted Project: LMS wagon browns
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Adam,
Hope you are feeling ok.
I am surprised by the brown paint. I would expect bauxite very similar to BR bauxite for the late LMS wagon livery. I think the LMS only used the dark brown on service stock such as downgraded ex-passenger stock.
Oak is a pain to paint. There are special primers, mostly to block the tannin from discolouring the finish colour but also to give some chance of adhesion. I think that the completely unpainted solebars would mostly be wartime or later replacements.
Unfitted Project: LMS wagon browns
AJC
Western Thunderer
Hi Fraser,
Not too bad - well, better than first time around back in September/October - just struggling to concentrate on screens for too long.
The brown is a tricky one, I admit: Precision P39 is called 'bauxite' but is quite brown (I've had a couple of tins over the years - I think Don Rowland used something a bit like that on his LMS wagons from the very occasional colour picture I've seen). Railmatch 612 is much closer to BR Freight Stock Red as generally rendered and is really quite orange in tone. Hornby tinplate and Dublo seem to have pitched somewhere in the middle for what that's worth:
The above borrowed from an eBay listing (for information only). More pertinent, since it shows the real thing is this image which I remembered after I'd applied the paint:
NB - Flickr posted the preview of the image not me: click on the link for a larger version.
That certainly looks very much more like the Precision colour (with all the caveats about scans of 1930s colour film/monitors, etc., taken as read in case @oldravendale is watching!). I wouldn't like to say which is right or wrong and if I decide I really can't live with it, I can overpaint it. I would value your opinion though.
Adam
Not too bad - well, better than first time around back in September/October - just struggling to concentrate on screens for too long.
The brown is a tricky one, I admit: Precision P39 is called 'bauxite' but is quite brown (I've had a couple of tins over the years - I think Don Rowland used something a bit like that on his LMS wagons from the very occasional colour picture I've seen). Railmatch 612 is much closer to BR Freight Stock Red as generally rendered and is really quite orange in tone. Hornby tinplate and Dublo seem to have pitched somewhere in the middle for what that's worth:
The above borrowed from an eBay listing (for information only). More pertinent, since it shows the real thing is this image which I remembered after I'd applied the paint:
NB - Flickr posted the preview of the image not me: click on the link for a larger version.
That certainly looks very much more like the Precision colour (with all the caveats about scans of 1930s colour film/monitors, etc., taken as read in case @oldravendale is watching!). I wouldn't like to say which is right or wrong and if I decide I really can't live with it, I can overpaint it. I would value your opinion though.
Adam
Unfitted Project: LMS wagon browns
Overseer
Western Thunderer
I am familiar with the 1938 Dufay slide and think the colours are reasonably accurate, I have previously commented on the orangeness of the Sentinel's buffer beam compared with the lining, but I think the wagon is severely blackened from being parked in a steelworks or similar. See the amount of black soot over the LMS and loss of visibility of the load rating. The running number has been reapplied. Edit: The wagon in the photo is a Diagram 1892 which were built between 1934 and 1939, and based on the relatively high number would only have been a couple of years old in September 1938. The 'weathering' on this wagon is definitely extreme and atypical.
Basically I think it is a much paler bauxite under the soot rather than brown. You would think contemporary Hornby models would be close in colour but maybe not, maybe a closer match to bauxite looked too orange when printed.
The Phoenix brown reminded me of this sample taken from a Jones Highland Railway carriage body at Inverness showing the LMS service stock brown over the Highland greens (partially heat stripped hence the cauliflower jumble of paint layers and varnish).
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Unfitted Project: LMS wagon browns
AJC
Western Thunderer
Ok, thank you. I agree that the Dufay slide is (like all colour renditions) problematic: the bufferbeam is washed out but the lining is very strong (though the position of the sun must surely be a factor in that, and probably the appearance of the brown wagon.
Having looked at some further Dublo examples this morning, I find them hard to square with either the Precision (which lacks the reddish tint that I think should be there - there's some manufacturing variation in the Tinplate versions but it's interesting that the LNER and SR browns used are different) or the Railmatch version - the rendering here looks like the colour I've seen used on 4mm and 7mm wagons - I really don't think it's dark enough: RailMatch 612 LMS Freight Bauxite (15ml enamel) | Howes Models - I think it's far too pale.
So I scouted around for some more examples (I might be ill, though getting better, but what's a researcher to do?). I wonder whether this single bolster survived in LMS livery re-lettered? It's not implausible - wooden underframe single bolster replaced by more modern vehicles in the '50s and transferred to the engineers - and doesn't look like Gulf Red (applied to departmental stock c.1960).
A genuinely LMS-era image (stills from this film, again all rights reserved and used for research purposes only: 1940's LMS railway in the U.K. | Huntley Film Archives). Note the patch repainting under the wagon number:
Now this film stock washes out reds and yellows very noticeably (that container should be Crimson Lake!), and darkens things a bit, too, but there's hints at a reddish tone my treatment lacks. I will change it following the Dublo examples, I think! If anyone else has some grist for this particular mill, I'd be vey pleased to see any historic images that they can share (or references to published images).
Thank you for the input, Fraser; the point is to make better models and this makes a difference.
Adam
EDIT: This film doesn't include good shots of LMS wagons, but does have a brand new MWT slope-sided mineral and a range of iron ore hoppers, in PO liveries, right at the end: The railways and the iron and steel industry. | Huntley Film Archives
Having looked at some further Dublo examples this morning, I find them hard to square with either the Precision (which lacks the reddish tint that I think should be there - there's some manufacturing variation in the Tinplate versions but it's interesting that the LNER and SR browns used are different) or the Railmatch version - the rendering here looks like the colour I've seen used on 4mm and 7mm wagons - I really don't think it's dark enough: RailMatch 612 LMS Freight Bauxite (15ml enamel) | Howes Models - I think it's far too pale.
So I scouted around for some more examples (I might be ill, though getting better, but what's a researcher to do?). I wonder whether this single bolster survived in LMS livery re-lettered? It's not implausible - wooden underframe single bolster replaced by more modern vehicles in the '50s and transferred to the engineers - and doesn't look like Gulf Red (applied to departmental stock c.1960).
LMS wagons - a selection pre-nat and on BR | DM722702__m_
Paul Bartlett's Photographs
PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com
A genuinely LMS-era image (stills from this film, again all rights reserved and used for research purposes only: 1940's LMS railway in the U.K. | Huntley Film Archives). Note the patch repainting under the wagon number:
Now this film stock washes out reds and yellows very noticeably (that container should be Crimson Lake!), and darkens things a bit, too, but there's hints at a reddish tone my treatment lacks. I will change it following the Dublo examples, I think! If anyone else has some grist for this particular mill, I'd be vey pleased to see any historic images that they can share (or references to published images).
Thank you for the input, Fraser; the point is to make better models and this makes a difference.
Adam
EDIT: This film doesn't include good shots of LMS wagons, but does have a brand new MWT slope-sided mineral and a range of iron ore hoppers, in PO liveries, right at the end: The railways and the iron and steel industry. | Huntley Film Archives
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AJC
Western Thunderer
David - I did wonder if that might be a possibility. Lots available, very affordable... I've patch painted this one grey now, but I have just picked up an ABS 1666 for buttons, so...
Incidentally, the latter contains this note in the packaging which offers a rough vintage (before about 1988, I guess as I think that's when Ken York died). And I thought Adrian was mostly an EM man!
Adam
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AJC
Western Thunderer
The etched board is part of a handy etch of details from Rumney Models: Wagon Detailing | Rumney Models (B.108, General Wagon Detailing). I’ve used a couple more in the ends of this BR standard van, not that you can see them!
I think I’m finally satisfied with the finish on this one (I hate weathering fitted vans, especially ply’ ones, but this has come out ok).
Adam
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I thought that was cake!The Phoenix brown reminded me of this sample taken from a Jones Highland Railway carriage body at Inverness showing the LMS service stock brown over the Highland greens (partially heat stripped hence the cauliflower jumble of paint layers and varnish).
AJC
Western Thunderer
A quickie, mostly done while I was under the weather. A venerable, but excellent, ABS kit for yet another 1666. I’ve made a couple of additions - brass brake levers and safety loops and capping irons from 5 thou’. One thing worth noting is the way Adrian mastered the rope cleats beneath the curb rails: T section. I’ll copy that…
Adam
Adam
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LSWR B4
AJC
Western Thunderer
Having put Thomas to one side for the minute, it occurred to me that I really should get my B4 completed since I’ve done the hard work in finding clearance for the crossheads betwixt wheels and front steps. That means pick ups, though all is well with the 9V battery test rig. It also means brake gear, which should be simple enough. Here’s the component parts:
Adam
Adam
AJC
Western Thunderer
It isn't really, is it? The - entirely plausible - answer is sale or hire to the quarry company. They are charming engines (and quite big, considering) so I couldn't resist. I still don't have a proper branchline loco for it, well I do, it's a pannier, or an O2 (another Friary loco), but there really should be an M7.
Adam
They are indeed. I often wish the North Sunderland had had one....
Just FYI, in case Dapol spares can be any use (plastic brakes, for example):
B4 OO Gauge - DCC Supplies Ltd
www.dccsupplies.com