Rivermead Central

[40057]

The storage shed + wall + fence assembly was finished this evening. Over the last few days, I have added weathering to the wall and shed so they ‘match’ in terms of the degree and nature of their dirtiness. I have also added the plywood strip which will be used to fasten the whole structure in place on the layout:







Next job, install on the layout.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

Hello Martin

I do like your shed. This a progress update on my new station platform project (the one to replace the Givjoy station I showed you). The new one arrived in a huge box, and I have spent the last week refurbishing it and installing it on the layout. I am quite pleased with it, see what you think -



I am pretty sure that it is from Hailey Models of Brighton, active in the 1930s, but there is no maker's stamp underneath. It is a pretty close copy of the Milbro island platform design, and measures 34 inches by 5 inches wide. As it is double-faced, we now have two platforms and can run passenger and parcels trains from both sides, which is going to greatly add to the operational interest. I think it also looks a lot better suited to (my imaginary) busy suburban station on a secondary main line.

The station needed a bit of work, as expected for £40, but it was basically clean and tidy. I straightened things up here and there, added ends to the canopy, and repainted the roof and valence. I have added the running-in board, a genuine Bassett-Lowke poster, and a couple of seats. In due course it will get busy with all the usual clutter of staff, passengers, luggage, and mail bags.

John

 

[40057]

Hello Martin

I do like your shed. This a progress update on my new station platform project (the one to replace the Givjoy station I showed you). The new one arrived in a huge box, and I have spent the last week refurbishing it and installing it on the layout. I am quite pleased with it, see what you think -

View attachment 255436

I am pretty sure that it is from Hailey Models of Brighton, active in the 1930s, but there is no maker's stamp underneath. It is a pretty close copy of the Milbro island platform design, and measures 34 inches by 5 inches wide. As it is double-faced, we now have two platforms and can run passenger and parcels trains from both sides, which is going to greatly add to the operational interest. I think it also looks a lot better suited to (my imaginary) busy suburban station on a secondary main line.

The station needed a bit of work, as expected for £40, but it was basically clean and tidy. I straightened things up here and there, added ends to the canopy, and repainted the roof and valence. I have added the running-in board, a genuine Bassett-Lowke poster, and a couple of seats. In due course it will get busy with all the usual clutter of staff, passengers, luggage, and mail bags.

John

Hi John

Your replacement station is a big improvement. Looks good. It can be very hard to identify the manufacturer of unmarked wooden buildings. I would agree Hailey seems likely. A platform length of 34” (give or take half an inch) seems to have been used by several manufacturers. I have always thought this an odd length not obviously equating to a whole number of bogie coaches, though I suppose, minus the length of the ramps, it’s about right for two. I have a single-platform station of unknown manufacture that is 34.5” long. It was originally ‘Hassocks’, which might point to Hailey, though a previous owner had altered the name board to ‘Low Fell’.

Martin

 

[40057]

At long last, finally, my rebuilt Royal Scot (see my post #210) has entered works for repair. I say ‘repair’ but the works visit is to have its motor replaced. Remove the very well engineered, modern(ish), Bearwood Models electric motor and reinstate the correct, original, 1950s, variable-speed, Bassett-Lowke clockwork mechanism. I regard this as a ‘repair’ because the electric motor is anachronistic and inappropriate; the clockwork motor will restore the integrity of the model. It will again be a complete 1950s locomotive.

I repaired the Royal Scot’s tender last year (see my posts #247 and #250). Also, sorted out a problem with the clockwork motor (see my posts #349 and #362).

I admit to having put off changing the motor because it was a job I wasn’t looking forward to. Past experience suggests the slotted nuts securing the driving wheels (which were painted over after the wheels were fixed) and the crank pins, in particular, can be very reluctant to shift. So there is a risk of damage to paint-work or parts or fastenings. Anyway, I decided yesterday the job couldn’t be postponed any longer. I started by removing the front bogie. It is not necessary to remove the bogie to remove the motor. I did remove the bogie because the bogie is mounted on a swing link but is otherwise not restrained. It will bash the bottom of the cylinders or the slide bars or front footsteps every time the loco is turned over. The reason for removing the bogie is to prevent possible damage to paintwork.

As it happens, once the bogie was removed, I noticed both its side frames were slightly bent. Not something that would cause derailment, but better straightened — so that is done. I also noticed whilst handling the loco that one of the nameplates is loose. I’ll fix that while the loco is motor-less and I can get inside the splasher to reach the fastening. If I hadn’t had to replace the motor, very likely I would not have found either of these issues. I certainly wouldn’t have removed the motor just to tighten the nut holding the nameplate in position.

Here is 46100 today with the front bogie removed, prior to extracting the motor:



I took the electric motor out this afternoon. Reasonably straightforward. Except that unfortunately, by unlucky chance, the position the pistons were stopped meant that — on both sides — the screw fastening the motor at the front was behind the cross-head. The wheels can’t be turned without applying power (I don’t have a suitable supply). I got the front motor fastenings out using a slim screw driver carefully inserted at an angle. Anyway, no damage, and the body is now set aside pending having the clockwork motor ready to install.

I also made a start this afternoon on removing the wheels, coupling rods and valve gear from the electric motor. I had hoped to remove the wheels with the coupling rods and valve gear still attached to them. However, more bad luck, on one side the slotted nuts securing two of the wheels on their axles were completely covered by the coupling rod. I will have to remove virtually all the crank pins and other fastenings to get all the wheels off the electric motor. Bother. So far, as expected, I have already found crank pins and slotted nuts that I have been unable to shift. I have spares (original parts) of these fastenings. So as long as I can — eventually — undo them, I can replace any that get damaged.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

The wheels can’t be turned without applying power (I don’t have a suitable supply).

Gosh, rather you than me, Martin. I'm not sure why you can't turn the electric motor to gain access to the fastenings - is it a sealed can motor? Surely it would be worth getting a cheap 12V power supply from someone like Gaugemaster so you could turn the wheels to a suitable position. You could always sell it on again afterwards.

John

 

[Fitzroy]

A very nice Royal Scot Martin, I assume fairly few of the rebuilt ones were made by B-L.

 

[40057]

Gosh, rather you than me, Martin. I'm not sure why you can't turn the electric motor to gain access to the fastenings - is it a sealed can motor? Surely it would be worth getting a cheap 12V power supply from someone like Gaugemaster so you could turn the wheels to a suitable position. You could always sell it on again afterwards.

John

Good advice, John. I probably should get a 12 V supply. I am going to need one (eventually) for Rowan Colliery. The electric motor fitted to the Royal Scot was holding the wheels locked solid. But I worked round the problem yesterday afternoon and being able to turn the wheels on the electric motor would no longer be a benefit.

Anyone got any recommendations for a reliable 12 V DC transformer/controller? It would allow me to test an emu (should I find one) prior to making the 3rd rail ‘live’ on Rivermead Central. It would also be the controller for electric trains on Rowan Colliery as I definitely intend this layout to be wired for electric operation.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

This may be overkill for your needs, Martin, but I have here a Helmsman Model Railway Controller Model CF5M with volt and 5 amp meters, Brand new and unused. £150 (was £255 in 2018). It belonged to my son who has diverted his interest from model railways (and in truth never had room for a layout anyway). Pictures can be provided.

I fully expect a "too big/expensive/advanced for my needs" reply but it's on the list I'm currently compiling of his unwanted items.

Brian

 

[John R Smith]

I also made a start this afternoon on removing the wheels, coupling rods and valve gear from the electric motor. I had hoped to remove the wheels with the coupling rods and valve gear still attached to them.

I am a bit puzzled by all this, Martin. Is it the case that the original wheels from the clockwork motor were transferred (including the valve gear) to a new set of frames with electric drive? So is your six-coupled clockwork motor now bare with no wheels? But the centre drivers on the original Scot would have been on stub axles, so I don't see how this would work. Unless Bob had set the electric drive ones up on stub axles too . . .

John

 

[40057]

I am a bit puzzled by all this, Martin. Is it the case that the original wheels from the clockwork motor were transferred (including the valve gear) to a new set of frames with electric drive? So is your six-coupled clockwork motor now bare with no wheels? But the centre drivers on the original Scot would have been on stub axles, so I don't see how this would work. Unless Bob had set the electric drive ones up on stub axles too . . .

John

Hi John

The clockwork motor, as per posts from last year referred to above, is indeed without wheels, valve gear etc. I put on temporary wheels for testing. As sold to me, 46100 came with ‘the original clockwork motor’. I have no reason to doubt that the motor I intend to install is the one originally fitted to this engine at Northampton. It is certainly the correct type and whether it is the actual one doesn’t really matter. So, yes, the wheels, coupling rods and valve gear were taken off the original clockwork mech and fitted to the Bearwood Models motor. Again, I have no reason to doubt that the wheels etc are the loco’s original set. In any case, they are exactly what the loco should have. The centre wheels will indeed be on stub axles with the clockwork mech. They are on a ‘through axle’ in the Bearwood Models motor. Both the electric and clockwork motors drive the leading wheels. The middle wheels will turn due to the coupling rods in exactly the same way whether they are joined by an axle or on stubs.

Martin

 

[40057]

This may be overkill for your needs, Martin, but I have here a Helmsman Model Railway Controller Model CF5M with volt and 5 amp meters, Brand new and unused. £150 (was £255 in 2018). It belonged to my son who has diverted his interest from model railways (and in truth never had room for a layout anyway). Pictures can be provided.

I fully expect a "too big/expensive/advanced for my needs" reply but it's on the list I'm currently compiling of his unwanted items.

Brian

Hi Brian

Thank you for this. Is it too advanced for my needs? I honestly have no idea. Apart from a Triang-Hornby train set before the age of ten — which my dad built for me — I have never run models powered by electricity. So I haven’t a clue. Truly. No idea how to operate this stuff or what I need for a layout with electric trains. Or what the equipment costs as I have never considered buying any.

I will start doing some research.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

A good idea to research, Martin. I'll not be in the least offended if it's a "No". There are certainly much less expensive controllers available, particularly "pre-used" but my understanding is that Helmsman had/have a good to excellent reputation.

Brian

 

[40057]

A good idea to research, Martin. I'll not be in the least offended if it's a "No". There are certainly much less expensive controllers available, particularly "pre-used" but my understanding is that Helmsman had/have a good to excellent reputation.

Brian

Hi Brian

Your offer has certainly prompted me to start looking into controllers — which I probably should have done before. So thank you for that. I am already finding some hard to reconcile information on the web. An announcement that the Helmsman principals had decided to retire. Discussion on a forum dated 2019 that Peco were to take over production. An undated announcement on Peco’s website that the Helmsman controllers would be available ‘in the new year’ (which year? It doesn’t say). No sign of any new ones for sale from Peco or elsewhere. Anyone know what the position is?

The controller you have for sale would appear to be aimed at 0 gauge? But I really am so much a beginner here, and so ignorant about alternatives, I am going to struggle to make an informed choice. I will eventually I suppose need two controllers. One for the third rail section of Rivermead Central and one for the small 00 layout, Rowan Colliery. Unless one controller will do for both, just by transporting it between layouts and plugging it in?

I may yet say ‘yes’ to your offer when I have found out more. Perhaps I should start a new thread to ask for advice?

Thank you again.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

The centre wheels will indeed be on stub axles with the clockwork mech. They are on a ‘through axle’ in the Bearwood Models motor.

Yes, that's the bit that puzzled me - how the electric conversion would manage to make the (stub axle) centre wheels work on a through axle. I always assumed that the wheel centres were different between the two types - but perhaps they are not. I have three sets of these six-coupled mechanisms, and they are wonderful. However, despite Bassett-Lowke lauding them in their 1928 catalogue introduction, I have found the centre drivers to be a bit of a mixed blessing. Yes, they do allow the use of a larger mainspring, but the stub axles and wheel centres tend to wear rapidly in this application, resulting in very sloppy centre wheels. As you cannot replace the stub axles or re-surface the wheel hubs, all that can reasonably be done is to replace the centre locknuts, which actually form a bearing surface in this application. I have a little stash of new ones. A heavy oil helps - I use motorcycle chain lube. With regard to paint clogging the centre nut slots - my answer is not to use paint, but a black Sharpie instead. Thin ink does not clog!

Not everything that Bassett-Lowke did was wonderful, sadly. In my opinion the stub axle design of these six-coupled mechs was one of their less inspired moments . . .

John

 

[40057]

Yes, that's the bit that puzzled me - how the electric conversion would manage to make the (stub axle) centre wheels work on a through axle. I always assumed that the wheel centres were different between the two types - but perhaps they are not. I have three sets of these six-coupled mechanisms, and they are wonderful. However, despite Bassett-Lowke lauding them in their 1928 catalogue introduction, I have have found the centre drivers to be a bit of a mixed blessing. Yes, they do allow the use of a larger mainspring, but the stub axles and wheel centres tend to wear rapidly in this application, resulting in very sloppy centre wheels. As you cannot replace the stub axles or re-surface the wheel hubs, all that can reasonably be done is to replace the centre locknuts, which actually form a bearing surface in this application. I have a little stash of new ones. A heavy oil helps - I use motorcycle chain lube. With regard to paint clogging the centre nut slots - my answer is not to use paint, but a black Sharpie instead. Thin ink does not clog!

Not everything that Bassett-Lowke did was wonderful, sadly. In my opinion the stub axle design of these six-coupled mechs was one of their less inspired moments . . .

John

The key difference with the wheels on the stub axles is that the quartering device is omitted. With the pre-1936 wheels this is a nickel-plated plate the shape of the wheel boss that fits over a square on the axle. Post-1936, a small brass eared washer with a square central hole is used behind the wheel securing nut. The ear on the washer fits into a hole drilled in line with the crank pin on the edge of the recess for the wheel nut. On the Bearwood Models motor, the middle wheels have the eared washer fitted (I haven’t got those wheels off yet, but the washer has to be there). When I fit the wheels to the clockwork motor, I should have two spare eared washers since they are not needed for the stub axles. The two quartering devices are clever in that they avoid the need for accurate squares to be machined in the wheel castings. Not easy in cast iron. Straightforward of course with Mazac castings. But using a stamped sheet metal component with a square allowed for accurate and repeatable quartering without the need to machine a matched set of wheel castings.

Martin

 

[John R Smith]

With the pre-1936 wheels this is a nickel-plated plate the shape of the wheel boss that fits over a square on the axle.

Which are what I would call the nave plates, which we see on the earlier six-coupled engines.

The key difference with the wheels on the stub axles is that the quartering device is omitted.

So the wheel castings are the same, for stub or through axles. This is the flaw in the design, really, although I can see that it would make economic and production sense to do it this way. It would have been better to have had a centre wheel with a continuous instead of stepped bearing surface, formed by a brass bush pressed into the wheel centre.

As you can tell I have never taken any of the wheels off, except for the centre ones!

John

 

[40057]

Which are what I would call the nave plates, which we see on the earlier six-coupled engines.



So the wheel castings are the same, for stub or through axles. This is the flaw in the design, really, although I can see that it would make economic and production sense to do it this way. It would have been better to have had a centre wheel with a continuous instead of stepped bearing surface, formed by a brass bush pressed into the wheel centre.

As you can tell I have never taken any of the wheels off, except for the centre ones!

John

The wheels are the same, just with or without the small stamped component that keeps the wheels quartered when on a conventional axle.

Certainly there would be other solutions, but probably not as cheap and accurate.

If you look closely at the leading or trailing coupled wheels on your Royal Scot you may be able to see the ‘ear’ of the brass washer that keeps the wheels quartered. It’s at the bottom of the hole between the the crank pin and the slotted nut.

Martin

 

[40057]

The wheels are the same, just with or without the small stamped component that keeps the wheels quartered when on a conventional axle.

Certainly there would be other solutions, but probably not as cheap and accurate.

If you look closely at the leading or trailing coupled wheels on your Royal Scot you may be able to see the ‘ear’ of the brass washer that keeps the wheels quartered. It’s at the bottom of the hole between the the crank pin and the slotted nut.

Martin

I hadn’t previously come across the term ‘nave plate’ so I looked it up. It seems to have first been used in the 1960s in the motor trade. No wonder I didn’t know it! On that basis, B/L certainly did not call their earlier quartering devices ‘nave plates’. I have heard them described as ‘boss plates’, but I’m not sure that seems right either.

Martin

 

[simond]

Power Supply / Controllers. To understand what you need, we need some information on the motor(s) that will be controlled/powered by said device.

It is easy to purchase a mains power supply that will provide 12, 18 or 24V, in a sealed box, akin to a laptop power supply. Amazon, RS, Rapid, Farnell, in no particular order.

Equally, you could purchase a complete unit including transformer and controller (eg Gaugemaster), but before doing buying anything, establish the continuous current demand of the stock you intend to run..

 

[40057]

Power Supply / Controllers. To understand what you need, we need some information on the motor(s) that will be controlled/powered by said device.

It is easy to purchase a mains power supply that will provide 12, 18 or 24V, in a sealed box, akin to a laptop power supply. Amazon, RS, Rapid, Farnell, in no particular order.

Equally, you could purchase a complete unit including transformer and controller (eg Gaugemaster), but before doing buying anything, establish the continuous current demand of the stock you intend to run..

Hi Simon

Thank you very much for that advice.

I plan, if I can find a suitable example, to run a vintage e.m.u. on the 3rd rail equipped branch on Rivermead Central. I have no idea of the current demand for a vintage e.m.u. and since I don’t actually have this train, no way I can find out. I wouldn’t know how to measure the current demand if I did have the e.m.u. but presumably that could be done. So your advice would presumably be don’t buy the controller before you have the train.

For Rowan Colliery (00, modern track) my thought was to wire for 2-rail 12 V DC because it gave the option of using the layout for modern r-t-r models. Again, I don’t have such and might not ever buy any. Or I might, or might have visitors who want to run something. The basis of adding the wiring — speculatively, just in case — was it would be fairly easy to do during construction. So not a great cost or effort but potentially a real benefit. Once again, I may be being naive here due to lack of experience. Having looked at some manufacturers’ websites this afternoon, there do appear to be controllers allegedly suitable for normal use on an average 00 layout. I am pretty sure any of those offered would be OK for my purposes. Though again, it might be better to wait before buying anything.

Martin