Seeking GCR 8N / LNER B6 Drawing (Works or Isinglass) for Reference

[Wilfred Adams]

Hello everyone,

Following on from the recent post where I shared my reconstructed drawing of the GCR 8N, I'm reaching out to this knowledgeable community for some assistance. The positive reception has been incredibly motivating, and I'm keen to push the accuracy of my work even further.

To achieve this, my primary goal is to find an original General Arrangement (GA) works drawing of the locomotive. I am hoping to use it as a definitive source to cross-reference and perfect my illustration. I know these are exceptionally rare, but I wanted to ask on the off-chance that someone here might have access to one or know of a specific archive or publication I might have overlooked.

Failing that, I am also very much aware of the highly-regarded drawings produced by Isinglass Models. From what I understand, these are considered an excellent and accurate resource.

My challenge, however, is a logistical one. As I live outside the UK, I'm unable to purchase them directly, as I believe they are only available for personal collection. With that in mind, I would be incredibly grateful if a member who owns the Isinglass drawing for the B6 would be willing to help. A clear scan or a high-quality, flat photograph of the drawing, intended strictly for my personal, non-commercial reference, would be an invaluable asset to my project.

My ultimate aim is to create the most accurate representation possible, which can then serve as a reliable resource for fellow enthusiasts and modelers. Any help in this endeavour, whether it's a lead on a works drawing or assistance with the Isinglass version, would be immensely appreciated.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Best regards,
Wilfred (Krynio)

 

[40057]

Hello everyone,

Following on from the recent post where I shared my reconstructed drawing of the GCR 8N, I'm reaching out to this knowledgeable community for some assistance. The positive reception has been incredibly motivating, and I'm keen to push the accuracy of my work even further.

To achieve this, my primary goal is to find an original General Arrangement (GA) works drawing of the locomotive. I am hoping to use it as a definitive source to cross-reference and perfect my illustration. I know these are exceptionally rare, but I wanted to ask on the off-chance that someone here might have access to one or know of a specific archive or publication I might have overlooked.

Failing that, I am also very much aware of the highly-regarded drawings produced by Isinglass Models. From what I understand, these are considered an excellent and accurate resource.

My challenge, however, is a logistical one. As I live outside the UK, I'm unable to purchase them directly, as I believe they are only available for personal collection. With that in mind, I would be incredibly grateful if a member who owns the Isinglass drawing for the B6 would be willing to help. A clear scan or a high-quality, flat photograph of the drawing, intended strictly for my personal, non-commercial reference, would be an invaluable asset to my project.

My ultimate aim is to create the most accurate representation possible, which can then serve as a reliable resource for fellow enthusiasts and modelers. Any help in this endeavour, whether it's a lead on a works drawing or assistance with the Isinglass version, would be immensely appreciated.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Best regards,
Wilfred (Krynio)

I guess the National Railway Museum will have an original and offers a copying service at moderate prices. They will send an electronic scan. I recently used this service to get a GA drawing of a GCR design. Very straightforward with helpful staff. Took about 6 months (but awaiting a new staff member at the time).

 

[Wilfred Adams]

Hi simond,

Thanks again for the input – this whole search is turning into quite the detective story, and every suggestion helps narrow down the possibilities.

Just to consolidate what I've found so far, so everyone is on the same page:

1. Official Archives: I've previously contacted both the National Railway Museum (NRM) and the Great Central Railway Society (GCRS). Both were very helpful but confirmed they do not hold the works drawings for the 8N/B6 in their collections. This route, unfortunately, is a confirmed dead end.
2. The 2012 Auction Lead: My research also uncovered that tantalizing blueprint of an LNER B6 that was sold on eBay UK back in 2012. Thinking it might have gone through a specialist house, I contacted Simon Turner at G.W. Railwayana Auctions to ask if they had any record of it.

Simon was kind enough to reply and confirmed it wasn't one of their sales, which means it was almost certainly a private listing on eBay. So we know an original drawing is (or was) out there in a private collection, but tracing it is the real challenge.

This brings us back to where we are now, and really focuses the search. With the official archives exhausted and the original drawing seemingly lost to a private sale years ago, the most viable paths forward are:

• The Isinglass Drawing: This now seems to be the most realistic and accessible high-quality reference available. My request for a reference scan or photo from a member who owns one remains the most hopeful option for my project.
• A Community Memory: The only other long shot is that someone here might just happen to remember that 2012 eBay auction, or perhaps know the seller or buyer from back then.

I really appreciate everyone's time on this. By ruling out the main avenues, we're getting closer to what's actually possible.

All the best,
Wilfred
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT to add a crucial clarification:



Just to be completely transparent and to clarify the core of my challenge, I wanted to add a crucial detail.

As some of you suspected, I've been aware of the LNER drawing number 12492-C for some time. My previous enquiries to the NRM were likely too general, and I should have been more specific by providing them with this number from the start. I'm fairly certain the drawing is in their collection.

However, this reveals the final and most significant hurdle for me. As I am based outside the UK, I face a logistical barrier in paying for the NRM's scanning services. Unfortunately, the payment methods available are not ones I can currently use.

This means that even though the drawing is likely at the NRM, the official route is effectively closed to me.

This is why my request to this community is so critical. My hopes now entirely rest on two possibilities:

1. A member already has a high-quality copy of either the original works drawing (12492-C) or the excellent Isinglass drawing and would be willing to share a scan for my non-commercial, reference-only project.
2. Someone might have another lead on a privately held copy, separate from the archives.

I wanted to be open about this to avoid sending helpful members down the same dead ends I've already encountered. My apologies if my previous posts weren't clear enough on this point – this has been a long and sometimes frustrating search.

Any help from within the community would be an incredible breakthrough.

 

[40057]

Hi simond,

Thanks again for the input – this whole search is turning into quite the detective story, and every suggestion helps narrow down the possibilities.

Just to consolidate what I've found so far, so everyone is on the same page:

1. Official Archives: I've previously contacted both the National Railway Museum (NRM) and the Great Central Railway Society (GCRS). Both were very helpful but confirmed they do not hold the works drawings for the 8N/B6 in their collections. This route, unfortunately, is a confirmed dead end.
2. The 2012 Auction Lead: My research also uncovered that tantalizing blueprint of an LNER B6 that was sold on eBay UK back in 2012. Thinking it might have gone through a specialist house, I contacted Simon Turner at G.W. Railwayana Auctions to ask if they had any record of it.

Simon was kind enough to reply and confirmed it wasn't one of their sales, which means it was almost certainly a private listing on eBay. So we know an original drawing is (or was) out there in a private collection, but tracing it is the real challenge.

This brings us back to where we are now, and really focuses the search. With the official archives exhausted and the original drawing seemingly lost to a private sale years ago, the most viable paths forward are:

• The Isinglass Drawing: This now seems to be the most realistic and accessible high-quality reference available. My request for a reference scan or photo from a member who owns one remains the most hopeful option for my project.
• A Community Memory: The only other long shot is that someone here might just happen to remember that 2012 eBay auction, or perhaps know the seller or buyer from back then.

I really appreciate everyone's time on this. By ruling out the main avenues, we're getting closer to what's actually possible.

All the best,
Wilfred
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT to add a crucial clarification:



Just to be completely transparent and to clarify the core of my challenge, I wanted to add a crucial detail.

As some of you suspected, I've been aware of the LNER drawing number 12492-C for some time. My previous enquiries to the NRM were likely too general, and I should have been more specific by providing them with this number from the start. I'm fairly certain the drawing is in their collection.

However, this reveals the final and most significant hurdle for me. As I am based outside the UK, I face a logistical barrier in paying for the NRM's scanning services. Unfortunately, the payment methods available are not ones I can currently use.

This means that even though the drawing is likely at the NRM, the official route is effectively closed to me.

This is why my request to this community is so critical. My hopes now entirely rest on two possibilities:

1. A member already has a high-quality copy of either the original works drawing (12492-C) or the excellent Isinglass drawing and would be willing to share a scan for my non-commercial, reference-only project.
2. Someone might have another lead on a privately held copy, separate from the archives.

I wanted to be open about this to avoid sending helpful members down the same dead ends I've already encountered. My apologies if my previous posts weren't clear enough on this point – this has been a long and sometimes frustrating search.

Any help from within the community would be an incredible breakthrough.

Hello

I would have to check, but I don’t think purchasers of NRM drawing scans are allowed to copy and pass them on. They are supplied at a price based on exclusive personal use.

I’m sure you’ve thought of this, but in case not, do you have a friend or relative in the UK who could order and pay for an NRM copy, then you reimburse them by a means that is not a payment method used by the NRM, but you can use to pay a friend?

 

[40057]

Hello

I would have to check, but I don’t think purchasers of NRM drawing scans are allowed to copy and pass them on. They are supplied at a price based on exclusive personal use.

I’m sure you’ve thought of this, but in case not, do you have a friend or relative in the UK who could order and pay for an NRM copy, then you reimburse them by a means that is not a payment method used by the NRM, but you can use to pay a friend?

I should add, when I purchased a GCR GA drawing a few months ago, I was offered options of paying online using a bank card, or being sent an invoice. I would imagine that if you request an invoice, you would be able to pay by bank transfer or similar means. A bit of hassle, sure, but far simpler and quicker than the extensive and unsuccessful search you describe.

 

[Dog Star]

There is a list of GCR drawings that the NRM admits to having in the drawing store. Search for Great Central contractors roll drawings. I have checked that list and there is no reference to class 8N.

From where did you learn of the dwg. no. 12492-C?

Rgds, Graham

 

[Wilfred Adams]

Hello simond and Dog Star,

Thank you both for your detective work on this – this is incredibly helpful!

@simond, your practical suggestions are much appreciated. The idea of using a friend in the UK is a good one, though sadly not an option for me at the moment. However, your information about being offered an invoice for a bank transfer is a game-changer. It suggests the NRM route might be more feasible than I initially thought, even if a bit of a hassle. Thank you for clarifying that – it's a very valuable piece of first-hand experience.

@Dog Star, you've asked the million-dollar question, and it gets right to the heart of the mystery. You are absolutely correct that drawing no. 12492-C does not appear on the standard NRM lists under the 8N classification.

The reason I know this specific number is because I have a low-resolution copy of the blueprint itself, which I am attaching to this post. The LNER drawing number is clearly stamped on it.



This seems to prove that the drawing does (or did) exist, but is likely mis-catalogued, perhaps under a general "Gorton Works" or a contractor's roll, as you suggested. This is precisely why this search has been so challenging for so long.

With this visual evidence now on the table, my core request remains the same, but is now much more focused. The most direct path to success for my project would be if a member happens to have a better, clearer copy of this specific drawing, or the highly-regarded Isinglass version based on it.

Thank you all again for your engagement. We are definitely making progress!

Best regards,
Wilfred

 

[Pete_S]

I found the following in the NRM/OPC* microfiche list:

Aperture Card	Title	Drawing Type	Date
4176	4-6-0 Passr engine Class B.6 G.C.R.(8N) Nos.52-53 Robinson 1918	Weight Diagram	1918
6135	4-6-0 Passr engine (B6) (ROBINSON) GCR 8N Class
12395	Full pipe & rod 4-6-0 passr engine 8N Class (B6) GCR 1918		1918

*Railway Microfilms Collection (formerly OPC).

I'd discount 4176 as it'll be very sketchy on all but major dimensions.
6135 could be worth a gamble - the above is all the info given so it *could* be a GA, but no guarantees.
12395 is probably the one to go for.

The last price I had was £7.50 a go for a microfiche scan.

Pete S.

 

[Wilfred Adams]

Hi Pete_S,

This is absolutely fantastic! Thank you so much for digging into the microfiche lists and sharing your findings. This is an incredible piece of detective work and a huge help.

It's fascinating to see three more potential drawings surface. Your analysis makes perfect sense – the weight diagram is likely not what I need, but both 6135 and 12395 are very intriguing possibilities.

What's even more interesting is that none of these match the drawing number from the blueprint copy I have (12492-C). This suggests there might be at least four different works drawings for this class floating around in various collections, which would explain why this search has been so complex.

This new information gives me even more specific reference numbers to potentially follow up on with the NRM, should my other avenues not yield results.

I am incredibly grateful for the time you took to do this research. This is exactly the kind of collective knowledge-sharing I was hoping for when I started this thread. Thank you!

All the best,
Wilfred

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Wilfrid,

The microfiche drawings can be viewed in person, usually without prior booking. I have done this quite a lot to check exactly what the drawing is, the descriptions are often vague and sometimes just wrong, before committing to buy a copy.

If you could locate someone who lives near York who may check for you. I would volunteer but live 250 miles away and only get to York occasionally.

I have had both paper and digital copies, both excellent. The paper ones take about 4 weeks to arrive, they outsource printing, but the digital ones arrive within days.

Ian.

 

[Wilfred Adams]

Ian,
Thank you so much for weighing in with your first-hand experience. This is incredibly valuable.
The insight about the vague and sometimes incorrect descriptions on the microfiches is a crucial piece of information – it confirms what many of us have suspected and explains why a simple catalogue search often fails.
But most of all, I am genuinely touched by your offer to volunteer to check the archives in person. The fact that you would even consider doing that, despite the distance, is an incredibly generous gesture and speaks volumes about the supportive spirit of this community. Thank you.
You've hit the nail on the head – finding that "someone near York" to act as a local proxy seems to be the most practical solution for the NRM route. Your post gives me the confidence that this might be a feasible request to make to the community if my other direct enquiries don't bear fruit.
Thank you again for taking the time to share your expertise and for your very kind offer.

Wilfred.

 

[40057]

Ian,
Thank you so much for weighing in with your first-hand experience. This is incredibly valuable.
The insight about the vague and sometimes incorrect descriptions on the microfiches is a crucial piece of information – it confirms what many of us have suspected and explains why a simple catalogue search often fails.
But most of all, I am genuinely touched by your offer to volunteer to check the archives in person. The fact that you would even consider doing that, despite the distance, is an incredibly generous gesture and speaks volumes about the supportive spirit of this community. Thank you.
You've hit the nail on the head – finding that "someone near York" to act as a local proxy seems to be the most practical solution for the NRM route. Your post gives me the confidence that this might be a feasible request to make to the community if my other direct enquiries don't bear fruit.
Thank you again for taking the time to share your expertise and for your very kind offer.

Wilfred.

Personally, given the low cost of the microfiche scan, I would just go ahead and order these. It won’t take long to get them, they might be what you need — or even if not still useful. Far less bother for you and for someone else than trying to get them checked in person.

 

[Wilfred Adams]

Hello everyone, and thank you again for all the practical advice.

@40057 ], you are absolutely right. Logically, given the low cost, just ordering the scans would be the simplest solution.

However, I feel I need to be completely transparent with you all to explain why this seemingly simple path is, for me, a complete dead end.

The core of my challenge is not just the logistics of being outside the UK, but a fundamental one: this is an extensive, self-driven research project, and as such, it operates without any formal funding. This means I do not currently have the means to make international payments for archival materials. My project is fueled entirely by personal dedication.

This is why my hopes rest entirely on finding a non-commercial solution – either a fellow enthusiast willing to share a reference scan they already possess, or a source like a society or a publisher willing to support a research project by providing access to materials.

I wanted to state this openly to avoid sending you all down rabbit holes suggesting solutions that are, unfortunately, not available to me. I truly appreciate all your efforts to help, and I hope you can understand my unique and challenging circumstances. This long search continues, but now all my hopes are pinned on the generosity and understanding of the community and other institutions.

Best regards,
Wilfred

 

[40057]

Hello everyone, and thank you again for all the practical advice.

@40057 ], you are absolutely right. Logically, given the low cost, just ordering the scans would be the simplest solution.

However, I feel I need to be completely transparent with you all to explain why this seemingly simple path is, for me, a complete dead end.

The core of my challenge is not just the logistics of being outside the UK, but a fundamental one: this is an extensive, self-driven research project, and as such, it operates without any formal funding. This means I do not currently have the means to make international payments for archival materials. My project is fueled entirely by personal dedication.

This is why my hopes rest entirely on finding a non-commercial solution – either a fellow enthusiast willing to share a reference scan they already possess, or a source like a society or a publisher willing to support a research project by providing access to materials.

I wanted to state this openly to avoid sending you all down rabbit holes suggesting solutions that are, unfortunately, not available to me. I truly appreciate all your efforts to help, and I hope you can understand my unique and challenging circumstances. This long search continues, but now all my hopes are pinned on the generosity and understanding of the community and other institutions.

Best regards,
Wilfred

Forgive me, but I question the feasibility of carrying out your project at zero cost.

Suppose someone is kind enough to go into the NRM and check whether the drawings identified are what you need. Let’s say they are. Are you still going to decline to buy them? There is a cost to getting copies made and no-one is going to pay that except you.

Someone going to the NRM on your behalf is likely to incur costs too. Not if they are in easy walking distance, but if they have to use the bus or drive. OK, no cost to you — but still a cost.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Wilfred,

Sorry I think you haven’t read my answer properly. I would volunteer to help IF I lived within easy travelling distance of York.. However I am 250 miles away and have no plans to visit the NRM in the foreseeable future. Perhaps there is someone nearer who could assist.

Ian.

 

[Wilfred Adams]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to post one final time to thank you all for the time, effort, and expertise you've shared in this thread.

This discussion has been incredibly valuable. It has confirmed the existence of several drawings, unearthed specific catalogue numbers, and explored various avenues for accessing them. This thread itself has now become a significant resource for anyone in the future who undertakes a similar search.

While my personal, unique circumstances prevent me from pursuing the direct purchasing routes you've suggested, your collective knowledge has been a huge help in understanding the full picture.

I will now continue my research through other channels. Thank you all once again for your passion and engagement.

Best regards,
Wilfred