Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Way back in post #1528 I wrote,

It would seem that there were 13 Scots allocated to Annesley between 2/62 and 11/64, 01/11/12/22/26/43/53/56/58/63/65/67/69.

I now have to hand info from the RCTS on the matter from their recently published book on the class, and a very fine book it is. I am now able to answer any question on Royal Scots including the colour of the drivers socks.

For the possibly most definitive record,
Two Scots were transferred from Saltley to Leicester GC for a period of a few weeks and then back to the LM again at Upperby. This was obviously a try out to see if the motive power situation on the GC under LM control could be improved.
46106 12/5/62 - 30/6/62, wdn 8/12/62
46118 19/5/62 - 30/6/62, wdn 13/6/64

It must have worked well enough although there is no doubt that the worst ones went to Annesley as their final shed before withdrawal. The list is in engine number order,
46101 from Willesden 5/1/63 - 31/8/63
46111 from Willesden 12/1/63 - 28/9/63
46112 from Nottingham 29/9/62 - 9/5/64
46114 from Willesden 8/9/63 - 28/9/63
46122 from Upperby 15/12/62 - 17/10/64
46125 from Willesden 8/9/63 - 3/10/64
46126 from Willesden 1/2/62 - 5/10/63
46143 from Trafford Park 29/9/62 - 21/12/63
46153 from Trafford Park 29/9/62 - 22/12/62
46156 from Willesden 6/10/63 - 10/10/64
46158 from Trafford Park 29/9/62 - 19/10/63
46163 from Willesden 12/1/63 - 29/8/64
46165 from Crewe North 22/2/64 - 21/11/64
46167 from Willesden 21/9/63 - 11/4/64
46169 from Willesden 5/1/63 - 25/5/63

The two missed first time around, 114 was only there for 3 weeks so I guess could easily not been observed, 125 was there for over a year so I'm surprised it didn't appear in other publications. I think that will do.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

I much appreciate your comment, Roger, and thank you for your kind additions and memories. Thanks for your New Year wishes too - Happy New Year to you and to all WT-ers.

We'll start a couple of the German photos at the bottom of this post, but more regular fare to start with. There may be one or two interruptions associated with the mayhem which is the over run of Christmas and the gearing up for New Year before we get back in to regular postings.

A locomotive with a very personal history for me. It's rebuilt West Country 34039 Boscastle on an up express at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. Home shed had been Bournemouth since January 1959. It moved to Eastleigh in September 1962 where it was withdrawn in May 1965. (SLS). I photographed this very engine at Eastleigh as withdrawn in September 1965 shortly before it moved to Woodham Bros at Barry in the same month having no idea how I'd become associated with it later. It left Barry in January 1973 for the erstwhile Great Central Railway at Loughbrough where I'd been a founder member since 1969. It was the first main line loco to arrive. It eventually steamed in 1992 but following some issues with the firebox was withdrawn in 1996 for a complete rebuild. This was proceeding well until July 2022 when the parts storage container at Loughborough was broken in to and many parts stolen. Since then negotiations have been in hand with the insurance company who have now made an interim payment of £50,000, although the estimated replacement value of the now missing parts is probably nearer double that amount.



This is the next roll of film and is a view from the train at an unidentified location. I believe this is probably some time between March and May (now updated to between May and August) in 1961 based on the remaining pictures on the roll refining the date but help in suggesting a possible location will be welcomed.

Edit. Latest information confirms this to be Bordesley Marshalling Yard looking south towards Small Heath. The bridge in the background carries Jenkins Street.



9F 92165 in Saltley Shed Yard carrying a 21A shed code which fits with date not known but probably between March and May (now updated to between May and August) 1961. It went to Saltley when new in April 1958, moved to Bidston in June 1962, then Bikenhead Mollington Street and Speke Junction in November 1967 where it was withdrawn in March 1968. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport in June the same year.



The bonus picture here is identified as oil burning Pacific 012 080-8 Rheine - Emden at Rheine in March 1974. More details, please, if known for all these German photos.

The DB photos titled Rheine-Emden with the catenary are all at Rheine Bhf.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

I believe this to be 51XX 2-6-2T 5192 in store in Tyseley Shed Yard, probably between March and May (now updated to between May and August) 1961. I've considered alternatives - 5163 was a Tyseley engine but withdrawn in 1959. I initially read the number as 5169 but this was withdrawn in 1960. 5192 was at Tyseley from October 1954, moving to Leamington in November 1961 and Stourbridge Junction in May 1962. (SLS). It was withdrawn at the end of June 1963 and was scrapped at Swindon Works by the end of September. (Rail UK).



2884 class 3851 in Tyseley Shed Yard probably between March and May (now updated to between May and August) 1961. Home shed had been Llanelli since 1949, then Didcot in June 1964 and Southall in January 1965 where it was withdrawn in July. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in October. (BR Database).



28XX 2842 in Tyseley Shed Yard probably between March and May (now updated to between May and August) 1961. This was at Reading in February 1960, moving to Didcot in December 1961 where it was wthdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Coopers Metals, Sharpness, by the end of July 1964.




The German photos for today follow the one of 012 080-8 above so are probably the train being double headed by that loco. Location remains Rheine - Emden in March 1974. Edit: Br 44 2-10-0s confirmed as Br 44 Öl - DB Umbau Br 043.

The DB photos titled Rheine-Emden with the catenary are all at Rheine Bhf.







Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks now to Mick for clarifying the classes for me, Michael for providing some real detail about that working, and Len for a suggestion which may or may not have worked out in practice.

Then to Ian, Adam and Barry for more about GWR Toads. Having given due consideration I don't remember ever having seen them other than on ex-GWR lines.

Manor 7813 Freshford Manor in Tyseley Shed on an unknown date, again estimated to be between March and May 1961 now confirmed between May and August 1961). This was last seen in Old Oak in post #860 although the shot was undated. The shed plate looks like 84E, Tyseley. and it was allocated there between November 1960 and November 1962 when it moved to Reading, then Swindon, Gloucester Horton Road and finally Didcot in March 1965 from where it was withdrawn in May the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped in the following July at Birds Morriston. (Rail UK).



Hall 6906 Chicheley Hall with 2884 Class 3802 behind in the Tyseley Workshop at an unconfirmed date estimated between March and May 1961 (Now confirmed between May and August 1961). 6906 was allocated to Banbury since at least 1947 and was withdrawn from there in April or May 1965. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in June the same year. (BR Database). 3802 was allocated to Oxley in April 1952, Tyseley in November 1962 and then Severn Tunnel Junction, Taunton and Bristol Barrow Road in October 1964 where it was withdrawn in August 1965. It went to Barry where it was saved from scrap in 1984. For details of its life in preservation see 3802 The allocation to Tyseley as late as 1962 makes the suggested date of the photo as March to May 1961 a bit shaky but it could have moved to Tyseley from Oxley for repair. Once we've examined all the photos from this roll we can make a better assessment of date.

6906 Wdn 3/4/65. (Irwell)



Midland Compound 41168 at Monument Lane Yard on an unknown date but estimated at between March and May 1961 (now confirmed between May and August 1961) on the same roll of film as the photos above. This was one of the very few Compounds I saw at first hand and I believed to be the last one running but that doubtful honour fell to 40936. These photos may help a bit with the date. 41168 was allocated to Monument Lane from June 1958 and was withdrawn in July 1961. (SLS). It's not carrying a shed plate in these photos which may indicate that it has already been withdrawn. It went to Derby Works where it was scrapped by the end of May 1962 which was before 3802 (above) was allocated to Tyseley. (Rail UK). According to WHTS the loco was stored at Monument Lane between October 1958 and April 1961 and was seen in Derby Works Sidings by August 1961, last recorded there in May 1962. This info is enormously helpful for us as it confirms that the date of these photos must be before August 1961. Even allowing for the errors in WHTS the recorded info coincides quite nicely with the evidence to hand. It looks as though I'm going to have to update the copyright dates...









Now to Germany and more of 012 080-8 Rheine - Emden in March 1974. The DB photos titled Rheine-Emden with the catenary are all at Rheine Bhf.









Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Martin. So the last Compound theoretically in traffic actually was 41168 which may be one of the reasons Tim spent so many frames on it. My mention of 40932 was down to pure laziness - I'd looked the matter up (Monument Lane Shed - View of ex-LMS 4P 4-4-0 Compound No 40936 coupled to the experimental Stanier 3500 gallon tender) and typed up what I thought I remembered! That site is a bit confusing, though, as it advises 40936 as the last of the class but reading on that 41168 was the last Compound withdrawn. I should have read through to the end which I've done now. As you'll see as we go through the Monument Lane photos Tim photographed 40678 as well.

In the same string of locos as 41168 and clearly in store with the chimney covered is 2P 40692 at Monument Lane Yard on an estimated date between March and May 1961 (now confirmed a between May and August 1961). This was actually allocated to Bescot and had been since June 1958. It was withdrawn in July 1961. (SLS). According to WHTS it was in store at Monument Lane between March and August 1961. It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge by the end of September (BR Database and Rail UK).



Original condition and un-named Patriot 45550 at Aston Shed at an unconfirmed date but probably between March and May 1961 (now confirmed between May and August 1961). It's carrying a 21D Aston shedplate where it was allocated from July 1960 until August 1961 when it went to Warrington Dallam, then Lancaster Green Ayre and Carnforth in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in December the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped in September at Cashmore's, Newport. (Rail UK).



Royal Scot 46169 The Boy Scout in Aston Shed Yard on an unconfirmed date but probably between March and May 1961 (now confirmed between May and August 1961). It was at Crewe North in September 1959, then Annesley in January 1963 where it was withdrawn the following May. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of August 1963. (Rail UK). Is that tender loading outside the loading gauge?



During Tim's Germany Rheine - Emden Tour in March 1974 he photographed this station, I guess as the train passed through. Does anyone recognise it?

Edit:
That station awning support work is very 'un' German but very 'Dutch', as is the higher roof section between the awnings. I don't immediately recognize it but it has a distinct Dutch feel about it more then Germany, though the architecture close to the border could transpose I suppose.

That does also look very much like a Dutch unit in the second picture on the right.

I suspect Tim would have traveled by train and used the Harwich-Hook service, in which case he would have traveled through Holland en-route to Germany.

Got it, it's Hengelo in Holland, hasn't succumbed to the progression bulldozer either, good job as it's a lovely structure.

In fact the little hipped roof house in the background still exists, now the grey building with light grey trusses.







Here's one of the 2-10-0s entitled Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 probably at Rheine.

Edit:
I rather think the loco travelling tender first in the Rhein-Emden series in #2891 is a Br 41 2-8-2. Other thoughts and opinions may apply.

Roger

Just my thought. Looks more like a 2-8-2 and I think it can be recognized as a BR41 by the distinctive platform under the smokebox door.

Michael

I think the location of the BR 042 is Salzbergen Bhf as the Münster-Rheine electrification only went as far as Rheine in 1974. Looking at the quality I would suggest this was taken through the window of the corridor door at the back of the train as it is over the track centre.

Assuming this is the same train at Hengelo (NL) (see img4016/7 above) it would have travelled to Oldenzaal (NL) under 1500v DC at which point traction would be changed to diesel for travel across the border to Salzenberg (D) via Bad Bentheim (D). Hengelo - Oldenzaal was electrified in 1951 and Oldenzaal - Salzenberg in 1976 as part of the Emslandstrecke elektrifiziert from Rheine to Emden and Norddeich Mole.



Finally for today oil burning 2-10-0 043 094-2 and oil burning 4-6-2 012 080-1 Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974. The DB photos titled Rheine-Emden with the catenary are all at Rheine Bhf.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Excellent sleuthing there, Mick, and well done for getting the confirmation, Dave.

Roger, Michael and Dave - yes indeed - that 2-10-0 is a 2-8-2. I'm grateful that someone can count - well, everyone can count better than me! Also, Dave, for that reference about German locos. And the location/route details, Dave.

Thanks for yours too, Paul. It's comments like yours that keep the enthusiasm going.

As for the buses, Dave - not three - more like 36.

Another on an unconfirmed date but probably March to May 1961 now confirmed as between May and August 1961. The view of the shed yard at Bescot with an 8F and Black 5 in evidence.



G2a 0-8-0 49078 in Bescot Shed Yard carrying a 21B Bescot shed plate on an unconfirmed date but in the series I've proposed as probably between March and May 1961 - but see below - now confirmed as between May and August 1961. There's a dispute between BR Database and SLS on this one as SLS reports it to have been transferred to Bescot from Nuneaton in May 1962 and that Bescot was its last shed. However, BR Database advises that the loco moved from Bletchley to Bescot in late April 1961 and back to Bletchley in January 1962 where it was withdrawn the following December. Rail UK agrees that Bletchley was the last shed and a withdrawal date of December. WHTS agrees with the withdrawal date. For me the confirmation that BR Database is probably correct is that my Locoshed Book for 1958 shows the loco allocated to Willesden (frustratingly I don't have one for 1961 to confirm the allocation at that time) with which BR Database agrees but the SLS record does not show any allocation to Willesden. WHTS and Rail UK advise it was scrapped at Loom Albert, Spondon (a new one on me which I've established is near Derby) by the end of November 1964.

The reason I've laboured this is that if the BR Database allocation date to Bescot is correct we can refine the date of these photos further, to being no earlier than May 1961. 41168 and 40692 in the posts #2889 and #2891 and in the same series of negatives left Monument Lane after storage for scrap in August which now puts this series of photos firmly in 1961 and probably between May and August.



Fortunately BR Database and SLS agree on this one although it gets us no nearer an accurate date. (Now confirmed as between May and August 1961). 2P 4-4-0 40694 in Bescot Yard with a 21B Bescot shed plate. It was allocated to Bescot in May 1960 and was withdrawn from there in November 1962 as the last of the class. It went to Crewe Works for disposal which was completed by the end of July 1963. I was hopeful that 40646 in the background may help with the dating but again BR Database and SLS broadly agree that the loco was transferred to Bescot in May 1960 and was withdrawn from there in May 1962, going to Cashmore's, Great Bridge where it was scrapped in September with which Rail UK and WHTS agree.



Now re-dating these photos to between May and August 1961 we have Midland 2F 0-6-0 58123 carrying a 21B Bescot shed plate with 58122 behind. 58123 arrived at Bescot on 1st April 1961 and was withdrawn from there in July 1962. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped at Derby Works at some time in 1962 (Rail UK and BR Database), although WHTS suggests it was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge with a query next to that data.

58122 arrived at Bescot in June 1958 and was withdrawn from there in September1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in January 1962. (BR Database).



Just two from Germany today, still Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and now with oil burners 2-10-0 043 094-2 and Pacific 012 075-8 at an unidentified shed. More to come here so identification may ultimately be possible.

Edit:
The shed is Bw Rheine, home to most of the oil burners late in life.

The office building in the background is distinctive (with it's double window dormer), not unique I'm sure but the shed, turntable and sidings to the right all match BW Rheine.

I can confirm it is Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine. The Ringlokschuppen is on the right behind the loco on the turntable.







Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Mick and Dave. Thanks for identifying the German shed location. I'm amazed but perhaps not surprised. There's more to come from the same location. As for the 9F vs the Br44 I'm in no position to comment but it seems that the evidence demonstrates the superior power of the German loco. More personal research required.

Another 2P 4-4-0 40678 in Monument Lane Yard between May and August 1961. This was a Bescot engine since November 1959 and was withdrawn on 8th July 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped in September at Cashmore's Great Bridge. (BR Database).



G2a 49411 in Bescot Yard between May and August 1961. It was based at Bescot since the end of October 1959 where it was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Newport at the end of January 1962. (Rail UK).



Another G2a, 49343 in Bescot Yard between May and August 1961. It was another Bescot allocation from June 1958 and was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS). It was sent to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped by the end of January 1962. (Rail UK).



Now back to Germany and Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974.

Coal fired 2-10-0 044 155-0



Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974 with oil fired 2-10-0 043 672-5 and 4-6-2 012 084-2.



Two of oil fired 2-8-2 042 105-7 entering the shed at .Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974. Note the coalburning 01.10 pacific in the background with open smokebox door and with the left piston valve slider removed.





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Michael - Thank you for your comment about the 042 which I'd not noticed. Duly to be added to the notes.

Well, I was quite prepared to fight my corner for a horse bridge but thanks to Yorkshire Dave, Martin, Rob and Simon I'm now equally convinced that's simply a retaining wall and back fill. Thank you chaps, and another photo where I need to open a whole section of notes. I hope that all answers your question, Paul, and what in interesting rabbit hole to go down, even if it wasn't terribly deep.

Ian - 40646 was one of the last but not the very last. That dubious honour fell to 40694 - see post #2901.

A Midland 2F 0-6-0 sandwich here with 58204 between G2a 49343 in front and Jinty 47363 behind in Bescot Shed Yard. The G2a is in the previous post, #2905 so details are there. The 2F was allocated to Bushbury in March 1956 and was withdrawn from there in May 1959. (SLS). Rail UK record it as having been stored at Bushbury for over two years so it appears that Bescot may have been a concentration point for withdrawn locos once sold. It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge by the end of August 1961 (BR Database) so another confirmation that the date of the photo must be between May and August. 47363 had also been a Bushbury engine since May 1953 and was withdrawn from there in December 1959. (SLS). This also went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where BR Database record it as scrapped in March 1961 - Rail UK propose a date c1959 and WHTS don't suggest a date but I suggest that neither c1959 nor March 1961 can be correct and it probably moved to Cashmore's with 58204 being scrapped around the same time.





Yet another G2a, this time 49440 in Bescot Yard between May and August 1961- that rubbish in the tender could hardly qualify as coal! SLS and BR Database record this as being a Pontypool Road engine in November 1957 but BR Database propose a final shed of Nuneaton in March 1958. Both agree on a withdrawal date of March 1962 and Rail UK agrees the withdrawal date and also the final shed as Nuneaton. It was scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of April 1962. (Rail UK).



Another MR 2F, this time 58124 inside Bushbury shed between May and August 1961. It was shedded at Bushbury from the end of January 1959, went to Bescot in March 1962 and was withdrawn in July. (SLS). It was another that went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in the following October.



Returning to Germany and mainly Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974 although I'm assuming that the first two are from the adjacent station - the signal box tells us it's Rheine. A Pacific 012 080-8.





On shed at Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine with oil burning 2-10-0 043 094-2 in March 1974.







and finally an unidentified 2-10-0 with another entering the turntable at Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine - possibly 2-10-0 043 094-2 above.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Adam. Yes, we're still trying to find out why it was at Oxley but Dave may be right and Stafford Road may be the answer. Thanks for yours, Mark, as well. I look forward to seeing the loco at work.

Thanks for yours, Martin. I'll add your info when I write up the final entry. (I'm way in arrears with my book work for these photos. I'll have to take a break soon to get everything up to date). Well done in securing that Prairie book.

I agree with you, Dave, about the collections which have never been seen and probably never will. Tim's would never have been thrown away - well, not by his son or widow - but neither would they have had any sort of pubic airing without Tim's generosity in passing them on to me. I've bought a couple of small collections for pence from the junk bins at antiques fairs, probably coming from house clearances. I'll bet those represent a couple of % of what's been destroyed as of no £ value. Sadly such collections rarely have any accompanying information about date or location, so this may be just the forum on which to show them. (One day).

Roger - I'd love to offer to scan your prints and get the best out of them that I can. (I've produced decent scans from prints previously). I'll not make that offer though, as I still have several thousand of Tim's colour images to deal with, even though most of those are post 1968 and a relatively small proportion are of railways.

Today to the ECML.

A2/3 60516 Hycilla with a 50A York shed plate and Scarborough Flyer head board backing out of Kings Cross on 22nd July 1961. It was allocated to York from July 1960 and withdrawn from there in November 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the beginning of April 1963.



Another A2/3 60514 Chamossaire on the 4.28 SO Peterborough and York at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This was previously in post #2539. It had been on the New England allocation since 1948 and was withdrawn from there in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in June 1963. (Rail UK).



A4 60031 Golden Plover Up from Edinburgh on a SO train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. We've debated this one being in London previously (see post #2671) when I said: "We have to question the identification, though, as 60031 was a St Rollox engine (although not at the time of this photo when it was allocated to Haymarket), although the nameplate looks as though it could be Golden Plover. The loco was withdrawn from St Rollox at the end of October 1965. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Shieldhall, during December 1965. (BR Database)." I hope Mickoo will confirm whether the loco has a corridor tender which will probably be enough to confirm the identification.

Edit. I now have located a photo of 60031 on The Elizabethan at Kings Cross in August 1961 and with no electrification flashes. The loco was clearly no stranger to London and I'm minded to settle on this being 60031 without further discussion.



Time for a bit of Germany today, though.

Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974. 2-10-0 044 569-2 on the turntable. The final numbers on the cab side plate of the 2-10-0 on the left are 155-0.









Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Yet again I'm in your debt, Dave. Thank you for the info about those 2-10-0s. There's more to come! Also Roger - thanks for your enthusiasm for these pictures.

A3 60039 Sandwich on the down SO Yorkshire Pullman at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. Seen as long ago as post #200 60039 was a 34A Kings Cross engine and had been since April 1957 when it vacated the GC lines. It was withdrawn from Kings Cross in March 1963. (SLS). 60039 had only just received the trough deflectors, in April 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in the April following withdrawal. (Rail UK).



Another A3, this time 60047 Donovan down light engine at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. Seen previously in post #151 it was a Grantham engine at the time of the photo, moving to New England in October 1962 and withdrawal in April 1963. (SLS). Trough deflectors had only just been fitted- BR Database advises this was in July 1961 but gives no precise date. It went in to Doncaster Works in mid June 1963 for cutting up.



An A4 we've not seen previously, 60013 Dominion of New Zealand on an up express at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This had been allocated to Kings Cross since the end of June 1950 and was withdrawn in mid April 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the end of the same month. (BR Database).



Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974 again and more of 2-10-0 044 569-2 on the turntable. We've established that the loco on the left in the first photo is 044 155-0 thanks to the information provided by Yorkshire Dave. Is there a reason for all the locos in these shots being smokebox first in to the shed whereas the subject loco is tender towards the shed building? Could it have been specially positioned for the participants in the shed visit?









Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Martin. Yes, I think we can consider your homework completed . As 60514 is on a train surely it'd be kept in forward gear even if stopped at signals, would it not? Must admit that I'd not noticed that though.

Also Roger and Dave, once more. We'll put the positions of the locos down to the shed foreman being of a neat and tidy disposition. As for people wandering around the shed and being told to beware of moving large lumps of metal, isn;t that self evident? I wonder if they'd be quite so cavalier in their assumptions nowadays. That'd be a bit dodgy bearing in mind that most people appear to consider any safety issue of their making is someone else's fault.

V2 60826 on an up Glasgow train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This was a Doncaster engine at the time and had been since November 1959. It was withdrawn in April 1962 (SLS) and entered Doncaster Works for cutting up on the same date. (BR Database).



A3 60048 Doncaster on the 8.10pm Peterborough train at Kings Cross on 22nd July 1961. This has been seen before, for example in post #2260. This had been a Grantham engine since February 1959, then New England in October 1962 and back to Grantham in April 1963 where it was withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). Rail UK refers to a withdrawal date of September 1963 and disposal at Doncaster Works the same month.


A2/3 60520 Owen Tudor waiting to leave on a parcels train at Kings Cross on 22nd July 1961. This has been seen in previous postings many times. It had been allocated to Doncaster since January 1960 and went from there to New England in October 1962 where it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works which it entered at the end of August 1963.





Meanwhile, in Germany, back at Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974..... 2-8-2s 042 106-5 and 042 363-2.



2-10-0 044 569-2





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Martin. I'd not applied your observations to the photos so apart from a cursory look hadn't related what was clearly a transposition of the comments if I'd studied them. I know just how easy it is to get details confused!

Thanks for yours too, Roger. I regret to say I've never seen any of those big German machines. When I could have been visiting Germany I was job focussed and restoring a house in my spare time (which also soaked up all available cash anyway). I went to Cologne a few times through about 1978 to the mid to late 80s to attend Photokina on behalf of my company but never had the time to extend my stay.

Jubilee 45596 Bahamas in Willesden Roundhouse on 22nd July 1961 carrying a 12B Carlisle Upperby shed plate. According to the record at the time it was allocated to Edge Hill and had been since November 1948. In August 1962 it moved to Stockport Edgeley where it was withdrawn in July 1966. (SLS). Locoshed books between April 1957 and December 1959 confirm the allocation to Edge Hill but frustratingly I have no Locoshed books for between 1960 and early 1963 to confirm whether and when it moved to Carlisle. The Locoshed books for October 1963 and June 1964 confirm a Stockport Edgeley allocation. It was bought by Bahamas Locomotive Society direct from BR in January 1967 after a period in store at Stockport. For details of the locomotive in preservation see 45596 Bahamas (LMS 5596 & BR 45596)



94XX 0-6-0PT 9410 in Old Oak Common Roundhouse on 26th July 1961. This had been on Old Oak Common's books since May 1951 and was withdrawn from there at the end of July 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, by the end of the year. (BR Database). In the background is Class 03 0-6-0 D2126. Note the full stop after the D. This was notionally allocated to Worcester from July 1960, then Swindon from October 1961, then Gloucester Horton Road, Derby, Speke Junction. Springs Branch Wigan where it was withdrawn in October 1971. It went to P Woods Shipbreaking, Queenborough where it was scrapped at an unknown date.



57XX 0-6-0PT 9703 in Old Oak Common Roundhouse on 26th July 1961. Note the "GWR" which can clearly be seen on the tank side. It had been allocated there since at least 1947 and was withdrawn in December 1961. (BR Database). It was scrapped in Swindon Works in June 1962. (Rail UK).



More at Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974..... 2-10-0 044 569-2 followed by detail and cab shots of an unidentified loco.













Brian

 

[oldravendale]

"The one before the last"... 9F 92219 at Old Oak Common Roundhouse on 26th July 1961. New to Cardiff Canton in January 1960 it went to Cardiff East Dock in September 1962 where it was withdrawn in August 1965, having been stored there since the previous July. (SLS). That's a working life of 5 years, 6 months and 10 days. What a disgraceful waste of a capital resource! It went to Woodhams at Barry It remained there until May 1985. It remains in scrapyard condition having had a less than successful time so far in preservation and is now at the Strathspey Railway since May 2023 where the intention was to store the loco before starting work on the restoration "a few months later". See 92219



Castle 5046 Earl Cawdor in Old Oak Common Yard on 26th July 1961. This has previously been in post #1807. It had been based at Stafford Road since 1958 and was withdrawn from there at the end of September 1962. (SLS). It went to Swindon for scrapping which was completed in March 1963. (BR Database).



Castle 4075 Cardiff Castle under repair in The Factory at Old Oak Common on 26th July 1961. This loco had been allocated to Old Oak since November 1959 and was withdrawn from there in November 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1962 at Swindon Works. (BR Database).



Continuing our German muse I'm guessing these photos were taken at Rheine, but still in March 1974. None of the locos is identified.









Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Penultimate is indeed the correct word, Dave, but I find my phraseology more poetic. Pretentious? Moi? Thanks again for the additional info vis-a-vis the German photos. This will be added to the descriptions. Also Roger - thanks for your musings and Michael for a bit more detail.

Martin - yours explains the Carlisle Upperby plate. I've always regarded the locoshed books as a primary source which is why I'm always on the look out for them but they clearly have the allocation in April 1957 and 1959 wrong. I'll be grateful if you'll confirm your source so I can add it to the details as a reference. As for the 9F - as Arun advises, the last one by build date was 92220, not 92250. Interesting thoughts from others why Swindon was last to build. I suspect the works building them were advised the numbers to use and Swindon simply had too much work on - or maybe Jan is right and Swindon recognised the PR opportunity and delayed their builds to suit. Or maybe Rob is actually correct. Additional info from Arun and Martin helps put the 9F builds in context.

Then back to Germany. Although I know nothing of German locos I understand your thinking, Roger, but thanks Mick, your two posts are pretty well chapter and verse.

All in all I've been rather pleased with the reaction to these German photos and the interest they've engendered. More to come!

A note here to say that there'll be a pause in postings for a week or so while I get all the data now collected in to some sort of readable format. I've decided how to do it so it lies alongside the photos in such a way that the detailed and therefore long strings of info doesn't get lost but it'll take a while. The timing of this pause has no relevance as far as the photo series are concerned, just that I've set my mind to the task so it must be done.

Moving on... A4 60031 Golden Plover with a 64B shed plate at Kings Cross having arrived with The Elizabethan on 26th July 1961. This loco has featured three times previously and this photo actually very effectively answers the question of whether a Haymarket engine got as far as London. Well, here's the living proof! It was at Haymarket from new (BR Database), then to St Rollox in February 1962 and was withdrawn from there at the end of October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Shieldhall, in December the same year. (BR Database). Haymarket were clearly proud of their A4s judging by the external condition.


Another A4, 60017 Silver Fox on an up relief at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This is another loco that's featured three times previously. It was a resident of Kings Cross where it had lived since new at the time of the photo, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the year end. (BR Database).



A3 60103 Flying Scotsman again on an up Newcastle train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. The history of this loco is, of course, well known and it's been in these pages three times peviously. Suffice to say that it was a Kings Cross engine and had been since April 1957, withdrawn in January 1963. (SLS).



Back to Germany...

Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974 again. 2-10-0 051 816-7.



Probably Rheine Station and oil burning Pacific 012 061-8.

Edit. Yorkshire Dave:
This is Emden Hbf - At the time of these photos the electrification terminated at Rheine. The Rheine-Emden section was electrified later.

On the left Alfred Wegner Eisenhandel - Emden was and still is located in Emden.



In the shed or yard at Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974 and coal fired 2-10-0 044 375-4.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

WD 2-8-0 90000 down light engine at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961.

It was built as WD 7009 in 1943 and renumbered as WD 77009 in January 1945. (BR Database). In January 1946 it went tp Netherlands Railways on loan (SLS) and is next recorded as being on the LNER numbered 3000 in March 1947. The newly formed BR took it over in 1948 and numbered it 63000, renumbering it again as 90000 in October 1950. (BR Database). It was at Annesley by the end of March 1947, then Colwick in October, New England in February 1959 and finally Frodingham in October 1962 where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cox & Danks, Wadsley Bridge in November the same year. (BR Database).




A4 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley on the up Norseman from Tyne Quay at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. We've seen this loco on these posts more times than you could shake a stick at, however it had been a Kings Cross engine since June 1950, moving to New England in June 1963 thence to St Margarets in November and then Aberdeen Ferryhill in August 1964 where it was withdrawn at the beginning of February 1966. (SLS). For information about it's life in preservation see 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley (LNER 4498, LNER 600, LNER 7 & BR 60007)



A1 60148 Aboyeur on the 5.55 to Leeds at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This has been in post #2024 among others previously. It had been at Leeds, Copley Hill since September 1955 and then moved around a bit, ending up at Gateshead from where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). By August it had been scrapped at Arnott Young, Dinsdale. (BR Database).



Moving on to Germany Rheine - Emden and coal fired 2-10-0 051 818-7 with Kabintender in March 1974. The absence of any overhead suggests this may be Emden. Now confirmed as Emden.





Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and a coal fired 2-10-0 with a barely readable number which I believe to be 044 375-1. I suggest this may be at Emden too, although I'm not certain whether there was a loco depot there. Now confirmed as Emden.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Arun, Martin and Larry. Thanks for expanding my knowledge of the WD 2-8-0s - a class I've always liked. Info now incorporated in the attached data.

Dave and Mick - thanks for yours too. That shed view from above has shades of Old Oak in diesel days.

I looked at the very beginning of this thread today. It's going to be a lot of work to collect everything we have from day one but I'm convinced it'll be worthwhile.

A4 60032 Gannet on an up Newcastle train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This had been a Kings Cross engine since June 1950 and went to New England in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It then went to Doncaster where it was scrapped in December. (BR Database).


.
A3 60076 Gallopin on a down fitted freight at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This was seen in Kings Cross very recently on the same day in post #2937. It became a Gateshead engine in July 1961 and the final shed was Heaton in early October 1962 where it was withdrawn at the end of the month. (SLS). It was scrapped in Doncaster Works in April 1963. (Rail UK).



A3 60112 St Simon on a down Hull train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This is carrying fins around the chimney as one of the early efforts to limit drifting smoke and it received the German style deflectors on a general overhaul visit to Doncaster in October 1962. In July 1961 it was at Grantham and had been since July 1959. In October 1963 it was allocated to Doncaster and went to New England in November 1963 being withdrawn from there just after Christmas in 1964. (SLS). It was sold to Kings of Norwich for scrap in February 1965. (BR Database).




This is a repeat of the photo we saw in post #2971 in the Germany Rheine Emden collection of March 1974. It's oil burning 012 061-8 and as Yorkshire Dave described, at Emden Hbf - At the time of these photos the electrification terminated at Rheine. The Rheine-Emden section was electrified later. On the left Alfred Wegner Eisenhandel.

I suspect this may be the train from which the following pictures were taken around Emden.



Views from the train Rheine - Emden or at Emden Station in March 1974.











Brian

 

[oldravendale]

I have insufficient knowledge of the area to comment otherwise than Tim's notes so this is what thry say: Black 5 44984 on a return excursion via the cross London line to Gospel Oak in the Harringay West area on 22nd July 1961. This loco had been at Kentish Town since January 1960, then it went to Bedford, Cricklewood, Leicester, Annesley and finally Colwick in January 1966 where it was withdrawn the following November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in March 1967. (BR Database).



V2 60832 on an up extra at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This had been a New England engine since February 1951 and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in June 1963 at Doncaster Works.


9F 92185 on a down freight at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. As a new build this was in post #634 and details are: It entered service in the middle of January 1958 at New England. In June 1963 it moved to Colwick, then back to New England in the November and finally Immingham in January 1964. Withdrawal followed in February 1965 (SLS) after the scandalously short life of a little over seven years whence the loco went to Drapers (Hull) where it was scrapped in the June. (BR Database).



Several here of Coal Burning 2-10-0 044 375-4 Germany Rheine - Emden at Emden shed in March 1974.









Possibly Coal Burning 2-10-0 044 375-4 again - certainly the same location and date but not positively identified.





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, David for the question about the tender pipes. Thanks then to Yorkshire Dave and Martin for your responses. All incorporated in to a pdf to preserve the info and photo (duly endorsed "copyright".

Barry - thanks for yours about the 9Fs.

David W - Such a short question but such an interesting response, so again thanks to Arun and Yorkshire Dave. All now in a pdf which I'll publish once I'm confident there's no more forthcoming on the subject.

B1 61159 on a down Cleethorpes train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This was allocated to Immingham in June 1954 and withdrawn from there in September 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped in November the same year at Cashmore's, Great Bridge. (BR Database).



A3 60110 Robert the Devil on the Tees-Tyne Pullman arrival at Kings Cross on 26th July 1961. It's carrying a 34A Kings Cross shed plate where it had been allocated since July 1957 and from where it was withdrawn in May 1963. (SLS). It entered Doncaster Works on 11th June 1963 where it was cut up in the same month. (Yeadons and WHTS). I don't have details of when the smoke deflectors were fitted.



A1 60133 Pommern on the 6.12 Leeds Departure from Kings Cross on 26th July 1961. This had been a Copley Hill, Leeds engine since June 1950, went to Ardsley in September 1964 and was withdrawn from there in June 1965. (SLS). It was sold to Clayton & Davie, Dunston for scrap in August 1965. (BR Database).



In Germany on the Rheine - Emden excursion in March 1974 are a series of shed scenes and a cracker of a shot of the driver of one of the locos at Emden. Very Teutonic!











As these shots demonstrate Tim was not scared to take what we'd now consider art shots and in many cases these are possibly the most interesting. I guess that, for some reason or another all those of us with cameras at the time took one shot of a fire grate, although rarely with a fire in it! My personal one was on a rebuilt West Country.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Michael. That's a hugely impressive and helpful amount of info in that single paragraph. It would be surprising if this were not a coal burner I suppose as it's at Emden and most if not all the locos photographed here are burning coal. I'm guessing that these locos had mechanical stokers - a boiler the size of those 2-10-0s must have had a hungry firebox.

Back to the Southern today.

Schools Class 30927 Clifton on an up express at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. It was allocated to Nine Elms in March 1961 and withdrawn in January 1962. (SLS). The Railway Observer report that it arrived at Eastleigh Works in February or March 1962 and BR Database gives a scrapping month as March.



Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73086 The Green Knight on an up Bournemouth train at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. It was allocated to Nine Elms from June 1959 and withdrawn from there in October 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport in March 1967. (BR Database).



Merchant Navy 35026 Lamport and Holt Line on the up Atlantic Coast Express at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. At the time of the photo it was allocated to Exmouth Junction and had been there since May 1959. It then went to Nine Elms in March 1964 and Weymouth Radipole in September the same year where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in September 1967. (BR Database).



Germany and this is Meppen Güterbahnhof in March 1974.



Continuing the Rheine - Emden trip in March 1974 four shots here of coal fired 2-10-0 044 199-8 at Meppen.









Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Martin - Thank you for so much helpful stuff again. I was in the midst of writing this post when yours arrived so I'll review in detail once this is posted but it will most certainly be included in the discussions accompanying the photos.

A4 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower backing down to Kings Cross on 19th June 1961. At the time of the photo this was a Kings Cross engine and had been since October 1957. It moved to New England in June 1963 and was withdrawn in July the same year. On 27th April 1964 it was shipped to the USA and is now in the museum at Green Bay, Wisconsin. See 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower (LNER 4496, LNER 598, LNER 8 & BR 60008)



This is described as the Royal Train returning from York hauled by A4 60003 Andrew K McCosh at Hornsey Sation on 19th June 1961. Is that a dynamometer car behind the tender or part of the Royal Train consist? 60003 had been a Kings Cross engine since 1957 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster in January 1963. (BR Database).



Black 5 45146 Willesden on shed on 18th June 1961. This belonged to Bescot in 1961, went to Stoke in March 1963 and was withdrawn from there in June 1965. (SLS). It was disposed of at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, by the end of December 1965. (BR Database).



Back to Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and an unidentified pacific passes at Meppen on a passenger train. I suspect of particular interest here will be the little loco peaking in on the left hand side of the photo. Details of the type and use thereof will be valued.



Another interesting series of shots featuring oil fired 2-8-2 042 271-7 on a breakdown train at Meppen in the Germany Rheine - Emden series of March 1974.











Brian