25kV stuff - old and new (and other electrics)

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Just been checking my notes and:

Ninety 86s (AL6) were fitted with Stone-Faiveley single arm pantographs and ten with GEC (AEI) crossarm pantographs.

Class 87s were all delivered with GEC (AEI) crossarm pantographs. I don't recall seeing them with Stone-Faiveley single arm pantographs (unless it was a replacement for a damaged cross arm) until the Brecknell-Willis pantograph appeared on them.

E3055 (class 82 but scrapped in 1970 without a TOPs number) when built was fitted with two GEC (AEI) crossarm pantographs.

As I can make out all others classes 81 (AL1) to 85 (AL5) were delivered with Stone-Faiveley pantographs with the exception of E3055.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
This selection is of indifferent quality as they were snapped on my mobile phone while rushing to catch a train either to work or home.


On several occasions class 90s appeared as a stand-in for class 91s under repair.

90 190 Multimodal - Leeds 2018. Apologies - can't do much about the station furniture.

90 019 Multimodal Leeds 2018.jpg


90 036 Driver Jack Mills - Leeds 2018.

90 036 Driver Jack Mills Leeds 2018.jpg


90 039 - Leeds 2018.

90 039 Leeds 2018.jpg


91 106 in Virgin livery departing Leeds. This was taken from the Skipton train on the way home.

91 106 Leeds 25 04 2018.jpg


Class 319 at Liverpool Lime Street 20/09/2018 - could well have sat on this when I used to commute from Luton to London and later when I worked for Thameslink for a while.

Class 319 Liverpool Lime Street 20 09 2018.jpg


Class 331 at Keighley 09/11/2022. These replaced the class 320s Northern Rail had for the Doncaster services and those brought in to bolster the Skipton and Ilkley rush hour services.

Class 331 09 11 2022 Keighley.jpg


91 119 Bounds Green - Keighley 25/02/2022. This one caught me off guard as I was walking down the platform to catch this train.

91 119 Bounds Green Keighley 25 02 2022.jpg
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Generally speaking, my mobile photos are utter pants, but these three are better than most.

Doncaster 2022 waiting for Mr Dunhill to arrive for beer in town.

20220610_194538.jpg

Despite many disliking modern traction, I actually find Azuma's quite striking, the driver didn't rate them and preferred 91's. I told him I remembered Deltics "wasn't even born when they were scrapped" he laughed.

20220610_201843.jpg

Shortly after the Azuma was a 91.

A few weeks ago I met Warren and a client who was collecting some models at Newark, it was mid way for all three of us, weather was shocking and I have to confess to being more interested in the 1:1 trains than the toys the other two were drooling over.

20230328_125621.jpg

I was impressed with the 91 audio, I'd forgotten how loud these things are, they'd do 'Roarers' proud. I'm planning another 2-3 day research trip to York in the near future and think I'm going to catch the train, time wise it's a close call, cost is likewise given the price of diesel but stress wise there's no competition.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I was impressed with the 91 audio, I'd forgotten how loud these things are, they'd do 'Roarers' proud. I'm planning another 2-3 day research trip to York in the near future and think I'm going to catch the train, time wise it's a close call, cost is likewise given the price of diesel but stress wise there's no competition.

If you book your ticket through LNER website it tells you whether it's a MkIV or Azuma set.

I prefer the MkIV sets to travel in - just a bit more leg room and a smoother ride if you're sat in the centre of the coach.

BTW I've come across a 1987 photo of 83 009 with a GEC (AEI) crossarm pantograph - one of three 83s retained for Euston ECS workings.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
A few weeks ago I met Warren and a client who was collecting some models at Newark, it was mid way for all three of us, weather was shocking and I have to confess to being more interested in the 1:1 trains than the toys the other two were drooling over.

20230328_125621.jpg


I was impressed with the 91 audio, I'd forgotten how loud these things are, they'd do 'Roarers' proud. I'm planning another 2-3 day research trip to York in the near future and think I'm going to catch the train, time wise it's a close call, cost is likewise given the price of diesel but stress wise there's no competition.

What a difference a year and a few months make.... I caught 91 109 in Leeds on 15/02/2022 - it was in the pseudo barber shop stripe LNER ex-Virgin livery.

91 109 Leeds 15 02 2022.jpg

91 109 2 Leeds 15 02 2022.jpg
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
The other two I used to see in Leeds were 91 110 and 91 111. Again mobile phone images.

91 110 Battle of Britian Memorial Flight - Leeds 2018.

91 110 1 Leeds 2018.jpg

91 110 2 Leeds 2018.jpg

91 110 4 Leeds 2018.jpg

This is the circular plaque under the rear cab window.
91 110 3 Leeds 2018.jpg


91 111 For the Fallen - Leeds 2018.

91 111 1 Leeds 2018.jpg

And again in Leeds on 01/12/2022.

91 111 2 Leeds 01 12 2022.jpg

91 111 Leeds 01 12 2022.jpg

I also saw the loco in York on 21/04/2019.

91 111 York 21 04 2019.jpg

91 111 was originally named Terence Cuneo and this is the detail on either side of the loco - a nod to the said artist.

91 111 3 Leeds 01 12 2022.jpg

91 111 4 Leeds 01 12 2022.jpg
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Cheers, I'll check LNER website when booking as I use redspottedhanky dot com.

91's are not one of my biggest collections, but I'm passing Huntingdon tomorrow so might drop off the A14 for a wander around and some photos if the weather is good; possible Offord or Abbots Ripton

St Neots - 91 124 on the 1A34 service.

91124_1a34_02.jpg

Colton Jct - 91 119 on the 1Y86 service.

91119_1y86.jpg
 
It's a little more complex than that, Stone-Faiveley were the majority choice for AL1-5 and AEI cross arms came in with the AL6 and 87, however, a small proportion of the AL1-5 (AL2-3 maybe.....need to check my notes) had cross arms, maybe as trials before fitting to the AL6? Later many class 86 (and some 87) were fitted with Stone-Faiveley pantographs, probably from withdrawn AL1-5.

As far as I know....and the largest span of my interest is 1959-85..... Brecknell Willis were only fitted to 87 and 90 due to their higher rated speed of 110 around the mid 80's, there was a trial fitting on the 86 244 before roll out on the 87.

There are two types of 'modern' pantograph fitted to the 87, both similar in style to the Stone-Faiveley but less metal work. The earlier one is a twin arm with upper square box section, the later one is a triple arm with the upper (actually the middle) tapered tubular arm, these have little winglets that help hold the small upper arm against the contact wire.

I've no idea who produced the earlier version but it's only the triple arm one (Brecknell Willis) that's rated at 110 and those are the only ones fitted to the class 90
A lovely comprehensive answer. Thanks Mickoo.
 
Just been checking my notes and:

Ninety 86s (AL6) were fitted with Stone-Faiveley single arm pantographs and ten with GEC (AEI) crossarm pantographs.

Class 87s were all delivered with GEC (AEI) crossarm pantographs. I don't recall seeing them with Stone-Faiveley single arm pantographs (unless it was a replacement for a damaged cross arm) until the Brecknell-Willis pantograph appeared on them.

E3055 (class 82 but scrapped in 1970 without a TOPs number) when built was fitted with two GEC (AEI) crossarm pantographs.

As I can make out all others classes 81 (AL1) to 85 (AL5) were delivered with Stone-Faiveley pantographs with the exception of E3055.
Thanks for filling in some gaps YD.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
This is all stunning artwork - first I've seen of any of it.
I imagine it was applied by vinyl wrap rather than painted direct?
Yeah they're overlays, bit like big Airfix decals.

I've only seen triple 1 once and it has an impact on you I have to confess.

91111a.JPG

91111b.JPG

I didn't know about the Cuneo mouse, a nice touch I thought and I think he'd be honoured to have it on the current scheme.

It's sad to think that when these last few class 91's go that'll be the end of a long line of rather special passenger locomotives to grace the ECML, truly an end of era moment in the near future I fear.

Stirling Singles, Ivatt Atlantic's, Gresley A3's and A4's, Deltic's, HST's and finally class 91.
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
If you book your ticket through LNER website it tells you whether it's a MkIV or Azuma set.

I prefer the MkIV sets to travel in - just a bit more leg room and a smoother ride if you're sat in the centre of the coach.

BTW I've come across a 1987 photo of 83 009 with a GEC (AEI) crossarm pantograph - one of three 83s retained for Euston ECS workings.
83 012 and 15 were other Euston ECS locos, reduced to 40 mph and fitted with cross arm pantographs.
 

richard carr

Western Thunderer
Just remember that the Class 91s were the the APT power cars with cabs. I was lucky enough to have 3 runs with the APT in 1984 when it ran as an unadvertised additional service to Glasgow departing at 16:30 Fridays only. It made Glasgow in 4 1/2 hours with no real effort, the maximum speed I saw was 133mph between Stafford and Crewe, but then again it had 2 power cars giving 16,000 horse power at the rail for a 1 hour rating, the 5 minute rating was nearly double that, that is what a class 91 can deliver if it has to. A Deltic had about 2,800 HP at the rail by comparison.

Electrics are just in a different league to everything else.


Richard
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Just remember that the Class 91s were the the APT power cars with cabs. I was lucky enough to have 3 runs with the APT in 1984 when it ran as an unadvertised additional service to Glasgow departing at 16:30 Fridays only. It made Glasgow in 4 1/2 hours with no real effort, the maximum speed I saw was 133mph between Stafford and Crewe, but then again it had 2 power cars giving 16,000 horse power at the rail for a 1 hour rating, the 5 minute rating was nearly double that, that is what a class 91 can deliver if it has to. A Deltic had about 2,800 HP at the rail by comparison.

Electrics are just in a different league to everything else.


Richard
And, some of the 91/APT design concepts went into the TGV/Eurostar and later Pendolino's. Folks claim the APT was a failure, not so, it spawned a whole new generation of technology. The class 91 and Mk IV body profile also has origins in tilt body, the shape allowed tilt capability (if it was ever developed) with the narrower roof line.

I have an unscanned picture somewhere of the APT passing Crewe, ironically taken by my younger brother as I'd gone to the gents, he didn't know whether to use my camera or not (in case I shouted at him) but decided to so that I couldn't caller him a fibber for seeing the APT when I hadn't, I later saw it at Stafford in the sidings and I'm sure I've a picture of that too, somewhere!

The crucial design change in the APT was the traction motor, traditionally mounted in the bogie which led to higher primary unsprung mass (Axle hung) and higher secondary mass (motor contributes to whole bogie mass) and limited it's physical size and thus power.

The APT and later 91 mounted the motor on the underside of the body at 90° to convention, suddenly you could make motors over twice the size with corresponding increase in power. The motors are offset off the centre line so that the drive shafts can pass each other, thus the motors are closer to the bogie centre, drive shafts are shorter and the whole unit more compact. Removing the motors releases several tons off the bogie weight which means it can be lighter and more track friendly, it also removes a lot of the axle hung weight (primary unsprung mass) as the revised hollow shaft drive gear box is significantly lighter.

When class 86 (AL1-5 were a totally different design of floating 'quill' drive, it's self not perfect and the Achilies heel of all the early classes, more on that another time of folks are interested) were introduced they had a primary unsprung mass of just over three tons I think, they smashed the PW to bits and were soon limited to 80 mph. Only revised bogie suspension and application of SAB wheels allowed them to go back to 100. By comparison the APT, 91 and Eurostar the unsprung mass is in the region of 1-1,25 tons if I remember correctly. The 86/1 (I think), 87 and 90 had hollow shaft drives to keep unsprung mass down, I don't think the 86/2 had the hollow shaft drive, just relying on the SAB wheels and redesigned bogies with flexicoil springs.

The other change was braking, on the APT and 91 the brake disc is mounted on the tail end of the motor and it's massive, on the 91 it's a conventional disc, on the APT a enclosed water/glycol impeller type brake, clever design but not ready for production and one of the biggest Achilles heels of the APT. TGV and Eurostar motors are even bigger and mounted higher up inside the loco body.

I've over exposed this 91 bogie, the large circle is the number 2 traction motor which drives the trailing axle, the number 1 is diagonally on the other side driving the front axle, the small ellipse is the vented brake disc. Both motors are secured to the underside of the body and hang down inside a cavity in the middle of the bogie, there being no central pivot as such; tractive forces are I think transmitted by torsion bars attached between the bogie end beams and body underside, but I've personally not seen that or can find written proof at this moment.

91127c.jpg
 

Lancastrian

Western Thunderer
It's funny reading about the changes to pantographs for running at +110mph, when tests in the early 1970's had AC electrics running at 140mph on the WCML.

Ian
 
And, some of the 91/APT design concepts went into the TGV/Eurostar and later Pendolino's. Folks claim the APT was a failure, not so, it spawned a whole new generation of technology. The class 91 and Mk IV body profile also has origins in tilt body, the shape allowed tilt capability (if it was ever developed) with the narrower roof line.

I have an unscanned picture somewhere of the APT passing Crewe, ironically taken by my younger brother as I'd gone to the gents, he didn't know whether to use my camera or not (in case I shouted at him) but decided to so that I couldn't caller him a fibber for seeing the APT when I hadn't, I later saw it at Stafford in the sidings and I'm sure I've a picture of that too, somewhere!

The crucial design change in the APT was the traction motor, traditionally mounted in the bogie which led to higher primary unsprung mass (Axle hung) and higher secondary mass (motor contributes to whole bogie mass) and limited it's physical size and thus power.

The APT and later 91 mounted the motor on the underside of the body at 90° to convention, suddenly you could make motors over twice the size with corresponding increase in power. The motors are offset off the centre line so that the drive shafts can pass each other, thus the motors are closer to the bogie centre, drive shafts are shorter and the whole unit more compact. Removing the motors releases several tons off the bogie weight which means it can be lighter and more track friendly, it also removes a lot of the axle hung weight (primary unsprung mass) as the revised hollow shaft drive gear box is significantly lighter.

When class 86 (AL1-5 were a totally different design of floating 'quill' drive, it's self not perfect and the Achilies heel of all the early classes, more on that another time of folks are interested) were introduced they had a primary unsprung mass of just over three tons I think, they smashed the PW to bits and were soon limited to 80 mph. Only revised bogie suspension and application of SAB wheels allowed them to go back to 100. By comparison the APT, 91 and Eurostar the unsprung mass is in the region of 1-1,25 tons if I remember correctly. The 86/1 (I think), 87 and 90 had hollow shaft drives to keep unsprung mass down, I don't think the 86/2 had the hollow shaft drive, just relying on the SAB wheels and redesigned bogies with flexicoil springs.

The other change was braking, on the APT and 91 the brake disc is mounted on the tail end of the motor and it's massive, on the 91 it's a conventional disc, on the APT a enclosed water/glycol impeller type brake, clever design but not ready for production and one of the biggest Achilles heels of the APT. TGV and Eurostar motors are even bigger and mounted higher up inside the loco body.

I've over exposed this 91 bogie, the large circle is the number 2 traction motor which drives the trailing axle, the number 1 is diagonally on the other side driving the front axle, the small ellipse is the vented brake disc. Both motors are secured to the underside of the body and hang down inside a cavity in the middle of the bogie, there being no central pivot as such; tractive forces are I think transmitted by torsion bars attached between the bogie end beams and body underside, but I've personally not seen that or can find written proof at this moment.

View attachment 185900
Probably a bit of a dim question but does anyone know, if class 91 are generally superior to class 90, why some 91s have been withdrawn and yet some container trains are class 90 dual-hauled?
Great explanation Mickoo. Always interested to hear more.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Just remember that the Class 91s were the the APT power cars with cabs. I was lucky enough to have 3 runs with the APT in 1984 when it ran as an unadvertised additional service to Glasgow departing at 16:30 Fridays only. It made Glasgow in 4 1/2 hours with no real effort, the maximum speed I saw was 133mph between Stafford and Crewe, but then again it had 2 power cars giving 16,000 horse power at the rail for a 1 hour rating, the 5 minute rating was nearly double that, that is what a class 91 can deliver if it has to. A Deltic had about 2,800 HP at the rail by comparison.

Electrics are just in a different league to everything else.

I have an unscanned picture somewhere of the APT passing Crewe, ironically taken by my younger brother as I'd gone to the gents, he didn't know whether to use my camera or not (in case I shouted at him) but decided to so that I couldn't caller him a fibber for seeing the APT when I hadn't, I later saw it at Stafford in the sidings and I'm sure I've a picture of that too, somewhere!

My only photo of the APT was taken at Crewe Works open day in 1981.

APT Crewe 1981.jpg
 

ovener

Active Member
If you're at all interested in the class 91's and HST's you may enjoy the book "Train Doctor" by Roger Senior. He was a travelling engineer on the class and recounts some amazing tales of things that went wrong; the class seemed quite unreliable initially. I was amused that because the Class 91 DVT's weren't ready an idling HST power car was put on the end. After a few fires from unburnt fuel the HST TDM control was modified to allow the HST engine to power up. With 7000hp available the accelaration was apparently incredible! I found it interesting how often a dead electric could coast to a station to avoid stranding passengers in the middle of nowhere.
 
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