7mm Steph's modern traction workbench

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Guys,

I've just managed to get hold of an MMP Class 60 kit, which requires use of a Mashima 1833 and Home of 0-Gauge gearsets.

Does anyone do a form/fit equivalent set of gears these days?

Steph
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Tsk, tsk, young Dale... one would expect a professional like you to ask for a "Form, Fit and Function" equivalent.

Young Beare and I did notice the MMP Cl.60 and we both thought the price was good... and then remembered the words of wisdom from David Parkin. So, 6 traction motors... several decoders... sound... Daily Mirror on the driver's desk...

regards, graham
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Steph, so long as the replacement gear sets have the same dia worm and gear then it shouldn't be a problem, Ultrascale do a large range of gear sets, mostly 4mm by the look of things but I recall from previous research some will suit 7mm https://www.ultrascale.com/eshop/products/CAT015, you'd need to fold down the motor mount and then measure the motor centre hole with respect to the axle to get your distances and work back from there.

One thing I was worried about on the 57 was that the centre axle floats so a gear on there could become either tight or loose, depends on how much it moves in reality and the gear tooth depth I suppose. I hadn't actually worked out how I was going to power the 57, probably two 1833 but only powering the inner axles, though I have a problem with that in that I have a full structural chassis under my body which effectively brings the floor to the correct height above the bogie and thus would impact on the 1833 which sticks slightly above the bogie structure.

The only other option is smaller transverse motor and gearboxes viz 1:1 scale.
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
v
One thing I was worried about on the 57 was that the centre axle floats so a gear on there could become either tight or loose, depends on how much it moves in reality and the gear tooth depth I suppose. I hadn't actually worked out how I was going to power the 57, probably two 1833 but only powering the inner axles, though I have a problem with that in that I have a full structural chassis under my body which effectively brings the floor to the correct height above the bogie and thus would impact on the 1833 which sticks slightly above the bogie structure.
Most people including myself drive the motor from the inner axle with drive to the outer axle using Delrin.......the middle floating axle is unpowered:)
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Most people including myself drive the motor from the inner axle with drive to the outer axle using Delrin.......the middle floating axle is unpowered:)

A similar approach with the ABC diesel motor bogie for the class 37, 50 and 52 - the leading and trailing axles in each bogie are connected by a cardan shaft, the intermediate axle is not-powered and free to float up / down.

regards, Graham
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
A similar approach with the ABC diesel motor bogie for the class 37, 50 and 52 - the leading and trailing axles in each bogie are connected by a cardan shaft, the intermediate axle is not-powered and free to float up / down.

regards, Graham

Thanks for that Graham :)

I did wonder how ABC did their motor bogies, they are a lovely bit of engineering IMO & I would like to try those & the ABC gearboxes at some point :cool:
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Most people including myself drive the motor from the inner axle with drive to the outer axle using Delrin.......the middle floating axle is unpowered:)
Phil, due to the way MMP has designed their bogies both the centre and outer axles float via a beam suspension affair, Delrin chain would work but won't pass the motor from the inner fixed axle toward the centre and outer, to do that you have to mount the motor vertically so it sticks into the body area like JLTRT, something 'I' was keen to avoid. The MMP approach is neat as the motor lies longitudinally within the bogie, but does hump up a little above the bogie and into the body by say 5mm or so. A smaller Dia motor would obviate that issue mind.

On locos like a Western or Warship where the bogie is semi skirted, then motor protrusion is almost invisible but for locos like 37 and Deltic for example, the motor protrusion is quite noticeable as you get close to eye level.

I also have reservations (probably incorrectly) with the Delrin drive solution but accept it is probably the easiest to apply.

It is a quandary that I have been struggling with for all three MMP locos I currently have, not an issue with MMP design or application, just my own struggles to find something which ultimately reduces motor visibility to zero, I also accept that a total solution may never present itself, at least, not one that does not break the bank! LOL

ABC bogies are great and the gear boxes might work with a thin cardan shaft arrangement from a body mounted motor....which is why I cut the floor off my 57.
MMP bodies traditionally fold up into a U shape with the floor being integral with the sides and then you add the roof, I wanted a removable floor so re-jigged it all into an inverted U affair with the roof integral with the sides.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Mick, take a leaf out of the (G)WR design ethos. Build a gear tower around the centre axle location and have a cardan shaft above floor level to a motor amidships.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Graham,
One was trying not to let on that one was a professional who might know how to specify form fit and/or function...

Mick,
Not so much diameter of the gears as their pitch centres. I'll have to investigate further and see what I can find.

All,
The issue with the Class 60 isn't what sort of bogie I'd like to fit, but the fact that as half the body is 'open' behind mesh screens: I don't have many options!

As I see it I currently have the following ways forward:
1. Traction motors (probably 4) - issues with DCC control means this would probably need a couple of decoders.
2. Canon 1833 and four (Home of 0-gauge-equivalent) gearsets as designed in by MMP - depends on my ability to sort F^3 equivalents of the gears. Though there are tunes to be played here I think.
3. Upright motor and Delrin drive on one bogie (i.e. not under the cooler group) - gets a mention in the instructions if wanting to use an RG7 to drive.
4. ABC motor/gear bogie on one bogie (i.e. not under the cooler group)
5. Small diameter (coreless?) motor mounted low down within the bogie, driving on inner axle of each bogie with Delrin drive running alongside the motor.
6. ABC motor/gear bogies with motors hanging off the inner ends of the bogies (or at least this layout for the bogie under the cooler group)

From my perspective, although the low-profile bogie idea in the kit is useful, I'm not happy about the use of multiple worm sets (huge friction) and especially when one of those axles is compensated and so the mesh is variable (even more friction). Although that option (no. 2) remains open while I think about it.

At the moment options 5 and 6 are being most actively considered. Option 5 could include an ABC 'diesel' unit as part of the solution, I suppose.

Options 4 and 6 would require Brian at ABC to manufacture sideplates for his bogie that were identical in form, fit and function to the MMP inner bogie. I'm not too sure how Brian would take that...

Steph
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Mick, take a leaf out of the (G)WR design ethos. Build a gear tower around the centre axle location and have a cardan shaft above floor level to a motor amidships.

Wouldn't work for me - it'd just be too visible on a Class 60.
And I think you'd probably need the tower to be somewhere outside of the centre of the bogie's rotation for maximum efficiency, rather than over the centre axle...

Steph
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Steph, forgot about the darn cooler group! You might get a cardan shaft under that but it'd be tight and would need a low slim tower, probably bespoke.

Pitch centres, yes that's what I meant LOL, been a long week already!

Decoders, perhaps I'm being dumb here but why two decoders for four motors? I'm presuming current draw, but four small motors would only be the same as one big motor surely and if all four are connected to individual axles it'll be a hard task for one to draw excessive current or to overload the decoder surely? I havent fired up my DCC set up yet but seem to recall track supply is AC and thus supply to motor must be choppered DC, that being the case it must be possible for the output from the decoder to drive a power circuit that directly feeds the motors and obviates high current draw on the decoder, failing that it shouldn't be too hard to break out the power transistors on the decoder to more meatier ones. As I say not fired up my DCC so could all be a crock of :shit: but I work with crane control power transistors (all be it a bit bigger at 1600A) so I should be able to work something out.....just not right now as utterly brain dead LOL Needless it could be an option to explore, which I do intend to when I get down that road I.E. increasing the current capability of a DCC decoder.

Still, back on track, I'll have to dig my class 60 kit out but I am guessing that if it follows the 57 and 56 then middle and outer axles are compensated and float vertically which all but eliminates cardan shafts and multiple worm sets, unless there were UJs in there but that just mounts up the complexity 10 fold.

The only other option and probably the one I'd favour is a large single motor in the fuel tank area but half buried in the floor so the drive shafts are close to the underside of the floor and via UJs drive a worm gear box on the middle axle (minimise UJ angles) and thus from there Delrin to the inner and/or outer axles, more like a pseudo Warship or V160 drive layout as opposed to a Western/ V200 drive layout. Failing that a tower where the fuel tank is and the motor within the body (pure V90 & V160 drive arrangement) and that'd allow for a big flywheel too....but it does eat into the speaker cavity. Drive shafts, worm drives, towers and UJs do all mount up the friction but it would allow for a big motor in there which would help overcome some of those forces and the bigger the motor the less current it would draw....in theory!

Slaters do a tower and a enclosed axle worm drive FD01 https://slatersplastikard.com/assets/pdfs/MotorGearboxFlyer.pdf , looks like the tower has been removed, though it would not be hard to make up a simple pair of plates with corresponding gears in to make an input/output shaft aligned tower gear box. Or even use delrin chain set up to transfer the drive below the floor. I can see UJs on the Slaters list as well.
I seem to recall that the FD01 will just fit into the bogie without protruding through the top but have a niggle that I might have been considering a small hole and a raised bogie pivot point by a few mm with the corresponding reduction above to maintain correct body height.

It does really depend on what sort of grunt you want, if it's to haul along all those steel slab trains we spoke about then your going to need some serious HP LOL, but if for a shunty plank then you'd probably get away with just one motor on one or two axles.

Option 5 is intriguing, one presumes the motor shaft is parallel to the bogie axles, that may well work quite well if you could ensure that the chain does no slip, your only issue there is finding a way to match the small motor shaft with the larger Delrin cog bores but I like the train of thought.
 

Pannier Tank

Western Thunderer
Home of 'O' Gauge, that brings back a few memories. I had a customer that I'd been going to for a number of years that
unbeknown to me was just 100 yards down the road from Home of 'O' Gauge. One lunch time I thought I'd pop in and see what's on offer. The door was locked although the Opening Hours on the door suggested it should have been open; eventually someone came to the door and started to question me as to why I wished to enter the shop and would I be purchasing anything! I was eventually let in to have a look around but felt uncomfortable and left. I understand they are no longer in business!
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Steph,

There are some avenues which might be fruitful....

1/ Ask the kit designer if he can recall the DP of the gear set for that information would have been at hand when designing the kit.

2/ Ask P Millard about the specification of the gearset... or the manufacturer of the gears.

3/ If Philip can provide the manufacturer... try there.

4/ Find a clockmaker /model engineer and ask if they can measure the DP which suits the gear arrangement... and then work on the premise that the gear is single start.

regards, Graham
 

Pugsley

Western Thunderer
5. Small diameter (coreless?) motor mounted low down within the bogie, driving on inner axle of each bogie with Delrin drive running alongside the motor.
Alternatively, why not a small coreless motor driving each axle? :)

Decoders, perhaps I'm being dumb here but why two decoders for four motors? I'm presuming current draw, but four small motors would only be the same as one big motor surely and if all four are connected to individual axles it'll be a hard task for one to draw excessive current or to overload the decoder surely?
It's not to do with current draw, more motor control. It's early days yet, as I've not managed to test my 37 properly, but it looks like there might be a bit of a problem with different motors having slightly different starting currents under DCC. You almost certainly can't have the back EMF feedback enabled on the decoder, it would seem, but I need to knock up a bit of track in order to break out the rolling road and give the bogies a good testing under DCC.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Alternatively, why not a small coreless motor driving each axle? :)


It's not to do with current draw, more motor control. It's early days yet, as I've not managed to test my 37 properly, but it looks like there might be a bit of a problem with different motors having slightly different starting currents under DCC. You almost certainly can't have the back EMF feedback enabled on the decoder, it would seem, but I need to knock up a bit of track in order to break out the rolling road and give the bogies a good testing under DCC.

Actually, I've got a few Escap 1616 motors here for just that purpose. My concerns over the ability to drive them have been borne out by your experience. Have you had any luck with it recently?

Steph
 

Pugsley

Western Thunderer
Not yet, I haven't had the chance to knock up the track to test it on. It's something I'm hoping to achieve this weekend, so I'll let you know how I get on.

There's got to be a way of doing it successfully, I've just got to find it!
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Well, from my perspective, things have moved on a little. For a start, I measured up the kit parts and have got to a gear centre distance of 8.something mm. A quick trawl through the Markits and Branchlines lists found a number of suitable sets.

Now to sort out the motor selection and required gear ratio before finalising the layout. There's an outside chance of a performance boost too. So yes, Mick; I'm working on the steel train scenario...

Steph
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
Well, from my perspective, things have moved on a little. For a start, I measured up the kit parts and have got to a gear centre distance of 8.something mm. A quick trawl through the Markits and Branchlines lists found a number of suitable sets.

Now to sort out the motor selection and required gear ratio before finalising the layout. There's an outside chance of a performance boost too. So yes, Mick; I'm working on the steel train scenario...

Steph

I believe HOG got his gears from Markits but I could be wrong.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
I believe HOG got his gears from Markits but I could be wrong.

David,

Many thanks - that would make some sense. Thank you also for your replies to my emails.

I must admit that I'm now very happy to use Markits gears as the ones currently produced seem of very high quality. It seems to me that combining them with a Canon 1833 would give me great running qualities. I just need to decide on which ratio to use!

Steph
 
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