Buckjumper
Flying Squad
...in which case he wasn't 
Must be the xylene...
Must be the xylene...
Douglas Lane Sidings & Works
- Thread starter P-J.S.
- Start date
P-J.S.
Active Member
Indeed I am not a member... yet... should I send twenty of the queens finest off to this West Mersea based establishment then? What is this red box you talk of?
It all seems a bit cloak and dagger to me 
The really great news is my Fiancé saw said plans laid out on the floor and has told me that she much prefers that layout to my other plans and she wants to help build it.... do I have a choice now? Just need to refine the actual plan a bit more to take in everyone's advice and suggestions!
martin_wynne
Western Thunderer
Hi P-J,
Do not use 'A' switches. In Templot, change to 9ft straight switches. You will find that not only are the turnouts shortened (to give you more space), but their radius is actually eased at the same time. They will also be more prototypical for a light railway/industrial line. To be strictly correct you should build them with loose heels, but the geometry works just the same if built as flexible switches.
Modellers are too fond of REA 'A' switches. They are "natural" at 1:7, but if used with shorter crossings they produce unbalanced turnouts and waste a lot of space.
regards,
Martin.
----------------------
http://templot.com
Do not use 'A' switches. In Templot, change to 9ft straight switches. You will find that not only are the turnouts shortened (to give you more space), but their radius is actually eased at the same time. They will also be more prototypical for a light railway/industrial line. To be strictly correct you should build them with loose heels, but the geometry works just the same if built as flexible switches.
Modellers are too fond of REA 'A' switches. They are "natural" at 1:7, but if used with shorter crossings they produce unbalanced turnouts and waste a lot of space.
regards,
Martin.
----------------------
http://templot.com
P-J.S.
Active Member
Hullo Martin
Thanks for that... I initially used the REA switches, then changed to the non prototypical 1:24, before using the 9ft type for all par the curved one that is a GWR 10ft one. I thought that "A" was just used to describe the sharper shorter turnouts. It was quiet interesting making a template from each type with a 1:5 frog, there is a big difference between them! I have to say that Templot2 is a lot nicer to use than Templot was, some big improvements, so thank you.
PJ
Thanks for that... I initially used the REA switches, then changed to the non prototypical 1:24, before using the 9ft type for all par the curved one that is a GWR 10ft one. I thought that "A" was just used to describe the sharper shorter turnouts. It was quiet interesting making a template from each type with a 1:5 frog, there is a big difference between them! I have to say that Templot2 is a lot nicer to use than Templot was, some big improvements, so thank you.
PJ
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Hi Martin,
Can you point me in the right direction to learn a little more about this aspect of track work? I have not yet visited your templot site, but hope to do so in the near future.
Thanks,
Tony
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
I think you have answered your own request there, Tony: go to the Templot site.
However, frivolity aside, it can be a bit daunting, so why not start with a piece about switches?
FYI, the curve on a turnout starts at the end of the switches, until it reaches (usually) somewhere short of the crossing vee nose. The switches come off the "straight" route at an angle, which determines the angle at the start of the curve. A shallower switch, such as a C, means a sharper curve, due to geometric requirements - the curve doesn't start at the tips of the switch blades except for a "natural" turnout, where there is a curved switch, the radius of which matches the curve up to the crossing fee. So, an "A" curved switch matches a 1:7 vee, a B a 1:8 and so on. An A8 turnout requires extra straight track and a shorter length of curvature between the switch and the fee.
That is all a simplification based on fully-curved switches diverging from a straight main route, but without getting into the trigonometry of it all (oh, how I wish I had paid more attention in maths lessons at school!) I hope it helps.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
It's a layout challenge by the S7 group, to design a layout in less than 33 Sq feet I believe, entries had to be in by just before Xmas (last) I believe and track plans handed in and finalised a few weeks back, you also have to be a member.
If your in your in, if you want in, too bad y'all missed the deadline, yes I missed it too by changing from 1:32 to S7 too late and missed the deadlines. Basically, anyone new to S7 has missed the boat, which is fair enough, you can't have an open eneded challenge or else it'd never end.
But, theres nothing stopping you from having ago under the same rules but just not officialy overseen by the S7 club, that'll be my option once I get to that point in the near future, and having just bought track components this last weekend from WM I have no excuses left to start a layout thread.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Not me, that one is no good as a solvent for styrene or ABS... now CHCl3 on the other hand
.regards, Prof Mad
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Thanks Simon! I am awaiting delivery of a 1946 edition of the track work bible mentioned recently on another thread, and some other track reading material. It's just that I've suddenly realised I haven't a clue what is being discussed here 
I have been deliberatley avoiding the templot site because I know full well as soon as I get on there I won't get off it - and I am busy laying power to the newly 'planted' modelling room at the moment
I have been deliberatley avoiding the templot site because I know full well as soon as I get on there I won't get off it - and I am busy laying power to the newly 'planted' modelling room at the moment
P-J.S.
Active Member
That sounds a good idea... my area comes in a just under 14 square feet! One question... who/what is WM?
I was planning on using C&L fine scale components for this, just one question about them. The chairs are brown plastic and the sleepers a different coloured brown plastic. Should they be painted before assembly, and if not, how do you paint them afterwards?
martin_wynne
Western Thunderer
Hi Tony,
Templot is free, so the best way to learn is to try things out: http://templot.com
Some basic explanations are here: http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_realtrack.htm
The switch selector dialog in Templot looks like this:
If you click the ? help button on there, these are the notes displayed:
________________________________
Switch Size and Type
-----------------------------------------
Important note for INTERNATIONAL users:
Templot uses UK track terminology. In Templot the term SWITCH applies to ONLY that part of a turnout comprising the moving switch blades (points).
A complete TURNOUT comprises a SWITCH (also known as a set of points), a V-CROSSING (also known as a frog), and some closure rails (also known as filler rails) linking between them. For more information and diagrams, please refer to the Templot Companion pages on the Templot web site at templot.com .
-----------------------------------------
Use this window to select the switch to be used for your turnout when you want to change the type of switch (see below), or when you want to set the size directly instead of using the ADJUST SIZE (F5) mouse action or one of the common REA bullhead turnout sizes available on the TEMPLATE > QUICK SET... window.
First select the switch you require by clicking the list.
You may then possibly want to tick or untick the JOGGLED STOCK RAILS option box as required.
Then click the OK button.
Clicking the RESTORE button will restore the previous setting.
Clicking the SHOW SWITCH INFO button lists the dimensions of the currently selected switch.
To re-use a custom switch which has previously been reloaded or copied from a stored template, click the bottom line in the list.
To enter your own custom switch dimensions, first click one of the 8 custom switch slots (towards the bottom of the list), and then click the SET CUSTOM SWITCH... button. For more information click the HELP buttons which then appear. You can create up to 8 different custom switches.
To save your custom switches in a storage box data file for re-use later, ensure that there is at least one template in the box using each custom switch.
Switch Sizes and Selection:
Templot currently provides 8 groups of pre-defined switches. These are:
Group 1. Straight loose-heel switches in 6 sizes - 9ft, 12ft, 15ft, 18ft, 24ft and 30ft. These are suitable for bullhead or flat-bottom rail.
Group 2. REA semi-curved flexible switches in 6 sizes - A, B, C, D, E and F. These are for bullhead rail only.
Group 3. GWR curved flexible switches in 3 sizes - B, C and D, plus GWR straight loose-heel switch in 1 30ft size. These are for bullhead rail only.
Group 4. GWR old-type curved loose-heel switches in 6 sizes - 9ft, 10ft, 12ft, 14ft, 15ft and 16ft, plus GWR old-type straight loose-heel switches in 2 sizes - 18ft and 20ft. These are for bullhead rail only.
Group 5. FB-109 semi-curved flexible switches in 6 sizes - SA (for industrial sidings only), SB, SC, SD, SE and SF. These are for flat-bottom rail only.
Group 6. BS-110A && BS-113A(inclined) curved flexible switches in 6 sizes - CA, CB, CC, CD, CE and CF. These are for flat-bottom rail only.
Group 7. Non-prototype straight-planed model switches having a virtual heel at the end of the planing. These are suitable for bullhead or flat-bottom rail.
Group 8. Non-prototype-specific straight-planed slip switches comprising only the planing length. These are suitable for bullhead or flat-bottom rail.
When you select a switch from one of these groups, subsequent changes to the switch size using the F5 mouse action will be limited to switches within the same group.
In each group, the switches are listed in order of increasing size (i.e. length).
The shortest switch sizes (less than size B or 12ft) are generally only suitable for yards and sidings, and cannot usually be curved very much, if at all, without infringing your minimum radius. (Unless the curving radius is negative, i.e. to produce a Y-turnout.)
Size B or 12ft is the size most commonly used on small model railways. Although hardly a running-line size on the prototype, it can serve as such on the model without looking out of place, and can be gently curved if required.
Longer sizes are a more realistic choice for running lines where space is less of a problem, and a necessary choice when significant curving is needed.
The longest sizes in each group are used for high-speed junctions and for long curved turnouts on sharply curved running lines. In model terms they will be found to need a great deal of space.
The first group in the list are straight loose-heel switches (see below). These are generally suitable for running lines on non-GWR pre-grouping railways, and for use in yards and sidings up to the present day. Using a straight switch instead of a semi-curved one can usually save some space. These straight switch designs are suitable for both bullhead (BH) and flat-bottom (FB) rails.
The second group of switches are the REA (British Standard) semi-curved flexible switch designs for bullhead rail. These are the sizes which are familiar to many modellers who have been using pre-printed plans, and are suitable for use on non-GWR lines from the grouping (1923) to the present day.
The third and fourth groups contain bullhead switches specific to the GWR. The third group are the more modern sizes, adopted on running lines since about 1930. The fourth group of switches are the older-pattern GWR loose-heel switches, suitable for yards and sidings and lesser used lines.
The fifth group contains the FB-109 flat-bottom semi-curved switches introduced about 1950 as direct replacements for the REA bullhead switches.
The sixth group contains the BS-110A and BS-113A(inclined) flat-bottom single-curved switches introduced about 1959 as an improved version of the earlier FB-109 switches.
The seventh group contains non-prototype model switches for use in shortened turnouts when space constraints prevent the use of correct prototype switches. Using these switches can not only save some space, but also ease the turnout-road radius.
The eighth group contains generic non-prototype-specific switches for use when adding slip roads to a diamond-crossing to create single or double slips.
N.B. The above notes are very general and should be taken as a rough guide only. As in all modelling, correct pointwork has to be based on observation of the actual prototype being modelled. ("the grouping" refers to the amalgamations of U.K. railways which occurred in 1923.)
The type and geometry of switches can take several forms:
a) Curved Switch:
This type is normal on the GWR (except for very long switches) and for modern flat-bottom track, but is unusual elsewhere in bullhead track.
The switch blade is curved at a constant "switch radius" from the blade tips (called the "toe") to the "heel" (the point where the "turnout radius" begins). The switch radius is not normally less than the turnout radius, and is often greater. If the switch radius and turnout radius are equal, this size of switch is known as the "natural" size for the crossing angle.
Curved switches can be either loose-heel or flexible pattern - see below.
In model form, curved switches need careful construction to ensure that the switch blade seats properly against the stock rail, and maintains the correct gauge.
b) Semi-Curved Switch:
This type represents the final development of bullhead switches on non-GWR lines. These switches are also known as REA-pattern British Standard switches.
For the length from the tip of the blade to the end of the machined area, called the "planing", the switch blade is straight, and inclined to the stock rail at the "planing angle". From the end of the planing to the heel the switch blade is curved at the switch radius.
Semi-curved switches are usually of flexible construction - e.g. the REA design.
This is the type of switch commonly used in model form, and represented on many ready-printed plans.
c) Straight Switch:
This is the older (pre-grouping, non-GWR) type of switch and is also commonly found on narrow-gauge and industrial lines, and Light Railways. Many straight switches can still be found in sidings and yards today.
The switch blade is straight from the tip to the heel, which is normally the point where the offset from the stock rail is 4.5 inches, and this length is the size of the switch. There is no switch radius, the turnout radius begins directly from the straight at the heel.
The simple geometry of straight switches is more easily reproduced in model form, and can save some space. If you are designing a custom switch to save space, a straight switch will probably be the most useful.
In addition, switches can be of the older "loose-heel" pattern, or the more modern "flexible" pattern. This does not affect the length of turnouts or the geometry of the rail edges, but does determine the position of the rail joints, which can also affect the timber spacings.
In a loose-heel switch the switch blade is shorter and the fish-bolts at the heel are not fully tightened, so that the blade can pivot slightly at the heel to give the required movement. Most straight switches and n.g. and industrial switches are of this pattern.
On post-grouping running lines flexible switches are more usual, although the GWR was later in introducing them than other main-line companies. The switch blade is longer and is firmly held in several chairs at the heel. The movement of the blade is achieved by actually flexing (bending) the rail from side to side. This requires that the point rodding is more robust than is necessary for loose-heel switches. Flexible switches are also sometimes known as "spring" or "heel-less" switches.
In model form flexible switches are the norm and generally more reliable. It's quite posible to represent the geometry of loose-heel switches using flexible construction - dummy rail joints can be added to represent the shorter switch blade. Templot is not concerned with the construction of switches, only their dimensions and geometry, so the choice of loose-heel or flexible construction can be made after the template has been printed.
For all these switches there is additionally the option of using joggled stock rails to accommodate the thickness of the switch blade tips. This is normally done only for facing turnouts in running lines, except on the GWR where joggled stock rails were standard for all switches. The sideways depth of the joggle is quite small, typically 3/8" (scale), but is often modelled overscale for functional reasons. If you wish to create your templates with overscale joggles, click the GENERATOR > GENERATOR SETTINGS > RAILS > OVERSCALE JOGGLES menu item.
For diagrams and more prototype information about switches, see "Real Track" in the Templot Companion pages on the Templot web site at templot.com .
_______________________________
regards,
Martin.
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
Ah, that explains it.
Quite difficult to know how to respond to public posts about a private conversation to which one is not party...
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
I have heard from the S7 Group Secretary, Rob Thompson (a WT member), and he is going to take up the request with the group committee.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Please think about using ply rather than plastic sleepers / timbers - 1.6mm ply sleepers (8'6" and 9'0" scale lengths) are available from C&L under the Exactoscale brand. You can obtain 12" lengths of 1.6mm ply in scale widths of 10", 12" and 14" which is used for turnout timbers.
I paint chairs on the sprue... blacken the rail (using Birchwood Casey)... stain wood sleepers before assembly so as to reduce the time taken to "finish / weather" the track.
You may find these topics of interest:-
* jigs and gauges for track making;
* track materials;
* common crossing jigs;
* Hartley Hill - a S7 layout.
And just keep asking questions
martin_wynne
Western Thunderer
And also in this excellent book from the GWSG:
See: http://www.gwsg.org.uk/GWSG_Publications.html
Ignore the reference to 4mm scale in the title -- 90% of the book is GWR and BR(W) prototype information applicable to any scale.
regards,
Martin.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Thank you Martin, that is a very good tome to begin to understand the subject even though light on pre-1900 practices (important where pre-1900 PW and S&C lasted into the Edwardian and grouping eras).
martin_wynne
Western Thunderer
Well yes, but that is hardly going to concern someone who has just put down the Peco catalogue. You have to bear in mind the general level of trackwork knowledge among many modellers. This book is essential reading for anyone wishing to get into proper track design, even if not modelling the GWR.
regards,
Martin.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Aha, I was just about to ask if there was anything similar but not so Great Western oriented - so you would recommend this to a track novice like myself who is unlikely to be modelling GWR? I'd be leaning towards the ex. Midland or GER heritage 
(well someone has to).
Edit: OK, just ordered a copy!
(well someone has to).Edit: OK, just ordered a copy!