Breaking Ground - Finescale - of a sort

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thank you Simon and Ovener!

While I understand that on the original railways, the engineers and navies started by digging out all the cuttings, then worked outwards building embankments in either direction on temporary track until the formations met.

Despite that, a rather large chunk of me is still wondering why on earth I hadn't planned to commence construction with a permanent, long, straight siding, laid directly from the roadway in the first place?!!

Pete.
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thank you too Brian - for your honesty! I do appreciate it, and am quite willing to admit that I usually seem to go hungry when dining outdoors as well!

Pete.
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
I should have added to that previous post, that Little Mr. T., originator of the wagon and station buildings design, was brought round yesterday evening to see the result of progress.

He became so excited that he was positively fizzing with ideas, details and instructions!

"Grandad!"... "If you dig this next bit downwards, we could have a tunnel"...

"...and some carriages with sliding doors...!"

Oh, oh!

Pete.
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
I should have added to that previous post, that Little Mr. T., originator of the wagon and station buildings design, was brought round yesterday evening to see the result of progress.

He became so excited that he was positively fizzing with ideas, details and instructions!

"Grandad!"... "If you dig this next bit downwards, we could have a tunnel"...

"...and some carriages with sliding doors...!"

Oh, oh!

Pete.
....what ! no passing loop and a second loco :eek: ......I'm gone ..............:D
 

Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen

Western Thunderer
Looking very good Pete, looking forward to the grand opening.
Couldn't the truck driver have driven the forklift with the pallet up your access road rather than reversing the truck up it?

Tim
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Thanks Tim. I am rather looking forward to the ceremony myself! Every yard of (hard won) rail laid down brings me just a little closer to that point!;)

On the latter, I was more concerned that even a truck driver who was worth his salt might take one look, say "Nah" and drive right on by!

There was just an awfully brief moment a while back, when the Olympic torch relay came our way. In the few short hours before the locals started lining up, it gave a really spooky glimpse at what the place where we live actually looked like 50 years ago.
It presented a surprisingly nice, "village" feel, although the effect was rather marred by the endless ranks of cones standing in place of the usual parked cars, for half a mile or more in either direction!

Pete.
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
While the good weather continues, so does progress.

I really should have posted a plan of the railway much earlier, showing the overall intentions and dimensions! It might help explain some of my unusual, if not peculiar decisions?!

hhzpoint 027.jpg

The plan has had to be sketched as a significantly compressed diagram - bearing in mind that the available plot for tracklaying is a very healthy 120 feet long, but is only a mere 12 feet wide! Making allowances for sufficient clearance at the boundaries has been the most vexing part.

As mentioned before, the decrepit, 30ft caravan is slated for disposal very soon, - something that my wife is very determined will happen - to be replaced by a more conventionally proportioned shed. In that case, there would not only be more room for a sensibly wider gate, but also additional space alongside the access path to lay a long extension of the siding, right up to the driveway. Both those features would be a positive boon for an increasingly decrepit railwayman, having to try and carry loco's and other stock across the road to the nearest railhead!

Meanwhile, the bonkers curve is still receiving continued attention:

hhSAM_8526.JPGhhSAM_8529.JPG

The increasing amount of spoil arising is slowing the work down, as I have gone well past the point of "spreading", and it all now requires bagging and transporting to the driveway.

I am hoping to persuade the good folks of the district that they might benefit from some nice, dark and organically rich topsoil... for free!!

Pete.
 
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Osgood

Western Thunderer
The caravan is going? banana.gif

But - before you junk the entire caravan, it strikes me that one each of the axle ends, wheel hubs and wheel centre might provide a suitable basis for the centre shaft, bearing and deck of a turntable for a highly qualified bodger re-purposer such as yourself......

Smiley popcorn.gif
 
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Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
The increasing amount of spoil arising is slowing the work down, as I have gone well passed the point of "spreading", and it all now requires bagging and transporting to the driveway.

I am hoping to persuade the good folks of the district that they might benefit from some nice, dark and organically rich topsoil... for free!!

The answer is here - surely :) :D... everytime you walk to the shops or down the street.

 
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Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Good news, and some not quite so!

The loop curve is almost there at last, although for some reason, the final length decided to fight me all afternoon, until eventually submitting, and settling down nice and level under the bubble!

Ganger (part-time) Mr. O., came home from his "other" job, and found me slumped, exhausted but otherwise quite pleased with myself, sitting in the old chair leaning up against his potting shed! It seemed an opportune moment to take advantage of an extra pair of hands, so I roused myself, and declared that the new line was ready - and really should be tested!

hhSAM_8534.JPGhhSAM_8537.JPG

Hurrah! It got there...!

Well... in a fashion! It slows right down, and grumbles a bit with my weight on the tender, but it does still keep going!

Mr. O., had a go - driving a couple of return trips along the whole length of the line for good measure - and I was able to closely observe how the wheels and motion behaved on the new formation.

hhSAM_8539.JPG

I discovered to my dismay that the engine is fine when pulling, but worryingly, will not reverse on the curve.

The issue very much appears to be with the tender. A combination of the wheelbase, nylon tyres, and the necessarily short drawbar.

I had assumed that there would be a problem with the deep flanges rubbing too much on the inside of the rail. That is confirmed, and no doubt has a significant impact, but it is also clearly evident that with a longer wheelbase, the wheels also skid at an angle to the rail head. The latter point produces a distinct braking effect - which is quite noticeable when pushing the wagon by hand.

When the tender, and indeed other stock is hauled round such a tight bend, the angle of the drawbar tends to pull the vehicles toward the centreline of the curve, thus reducing flange contact to a minimum. Reversing the engine has completely the opposite effect; pushing the flanges so hard against the outer rail, that the wheels tend to climb.

Conventionally coned tyres would probably mitigate those actions.

I do wonder how the old LYR at Horwich managed with their flat profile, free-running wheels on fixed axles under similar circumstances?! Could it be, in part, the reason for their peculiar choice of three foot long drawbars?

Having said that, all the original vehicles had an extremely short, and common wheelbase. I had to extend that on my own stock, purely for stability when riding on it. That factor alone might yet turn out to be my undoing?!

For part of the test, I turned the loco around, to see how it coped with pulling away, under load, from a standing start on the curve...

hhSAM_8541.JPGhhSAM_8542.JPG

Once again... slowly but surely... so no problem there!

I do take some comfort knowing that once the loop, and turntable at the other end of the line are completed, trains will only need to be hauled round with the loco leading at all times. I would of course, much prefer to find a more satisfactory solution though!

Incidentally, I had already tried one of Rich's superb bogies earlier - and that sailed round with so little effort, that I am convinced similarly fitted vehicles will be absolutely necessary for passenger carrying!

hhSAM_8531.JPG

I just knew it! we have got to have a TRAM for the railway now!

Shall have to think carefully about the overheads though?!

Back to the fun and games for today...

hhSAM_8544.JPG

Some more worn and broken "Staffie" pavers (perfect for our use) have been donated to the cause, but needed collecting from the driveway.

"Might as well make use of the engine, before Mr. O., goes in for his tea" I thought!

Pete.
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
......
Conventionally coned tyres would probably mitigate those actions.
......
Looking at the overhead photo it would certainly seem so - not just on the loco but even on the SWB tender.

Surely it has to be worth the hassle of coning the flanges?
The nylon should turn really nicely - we used to get all manner of flanged and other bushes, (30 - 100mm bore) machined to replace brass/bronze components on mobile plant.

How difficult would it be to try the tender wheels first as these would be easier to return to as-is than the loco if necessary - it might give you a good feel for what benefit might arise?

Can you tell which combination of stock (e.g. loco - tender, or wagon - wagon, or wagon - tender, interaction) causes the worst 'kick-out'?
 
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Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Yes indeed Tony! At the current price for those wheels, it would be well worth using a set for experimentation.

In the worst case scenario, even if I have to accept that expensively conventional, steel wheels are ultimately the only realistic solution, all the original nylon jobs would not be wasted. There are plenty of cheap, simple wagons and other general purpose vehicles that could be built - and be fun to play with - where their use would still be absolutely ideal!

Pete.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Yes indeed Tony! At the current price for those wheels, it would be well worth using a set for experimentation.

In the worst case scenario, even if I have to accept that expensively conventional, steel wheels are ultimately the only realistic solution, all the original nylon jobs would not be wasted. There are plenty of cheap, simple wagons and other general purpose vehicles that could be built - and be fun to play with - where their use would still be absolutely ideal!

Pete.
I don't think coned tyres would help on the sharp radius curve. At speed coning centres the wheel set on straight track without relying on flange contact all the time, and helps on curves because the coning changes the diameter of the wheel in contact with the rail - larger on the outside of the curve and smaller on the inside so the wheels don't need to slip on the rails. But for the small radius curve the difference in wheel diameter between the inner and outer wheel needed to avoid different wheel speeds would not be practical, hence the use of axles with one wheel loose to cope with the sharp curves. Steel rails and steel wheels would have less friction than the aluminium rails and nylon wheels do, especially the vertical flange face against the rail head.

You are probably onto something with the reason for the long coupling bars.

The railway is looking great and the loco is fantastic.
 

simond

Western Thunderer
whilst I agree with Fraser that coning the treads is not going to help, I do think coning the flange, and a big radius at the root, would be beneficial.

the other thing that might help is to pivot the drawbar nearer to the middle of the length of the tender, rather than the front drawbeam. Of course, the risk here is that it may make the forward direction less efficient, but I think this will be a small effect. The limiting factor will be the drawbar swing and the front wheels & axle, I guess.

it does look splendid!
 
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Osgood

Western Thunderer
Agree Jim, and shouldn't be too big a job (said he....) to experiment with widening the gauge a little - but where oh where did Pete park up that screwdriver?
And the resultant shortening of the inside rail might provide another similar off-cut, so a pair of earrings maybe instead of the necklace? :))

When I mentioned coning of the flange of the wheel, I certainly meant the flange - that appears to the interface issue, quite apparent in the photos.
Even on that (nicely engineered by the way) bogie a little taper would go a long way to minimising derailments - only need a bite off the edge of the flange to encourage the wheel to climb up over the rail.

Regarding long drawbars - surely the longer they are the greater the angle of sideways pull on tight curves, and the greater the rolling resistance?
I had always assumed the reason for these long drawbars was to allow for overhanging loads to be carried on the short wagons?
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
Wow guys! Thanks for your most fascinating and informative replies, every one is most welcomed.

The issue for me is both frustrating, and yet wonderfully challenging in almost equal measure. Life could be so dull if everything went smoothly and precisely according to plan eh?!

Thinking back to my earlier question about the original Horwich system, and how they managed with their stock on 13ft radius curves, I recalled this interesting image:

horwichhudswell ZM9 s-l1600.jpg
(Copyright image shown for illustrative purposes only)

The only thing known about this photograph is the date it was taken, and that the Hudswell, ZM9, had already been declared withdrawn/unserviceable, but was dragged out of the shed for the benefit of a group of visiting enthusiasts. It would be far too easy to assume that was the process depicted, except for the fact that there is clearly no drawbar between the loco and Wren's little tender. Therefore, it appears most likely that at that precise moment, the dead-weight and recalcitrant diesel was actually being pushed back into the shed?

There is quite a dense exhaust from the chimney that completely obscures the top corner of the shed building, indicating some effort being expended.

Further study indicates that the driver is standing on the footplate, with his left hand cupped over the top of the reversing lever handle, and we can also just see a rear three-quarter view of his cloth cap, visible above the dome, that seems to suggest he was looking down at the tender?

The second gentleman, stooping at the left of the image, holding a point changing tool in his left hand, and what appears to be a shovel in the right, is without question paying extremely careful attention to the tender wheels!

At the present time and place, it just seemed so appropriate to include it here!

Pete.
 

Peter Insole

Western Thunderer
To answer some of the points raised more directly, I have already included widening of the gauge - so a screwdriver is happily not required (!) I even went as far as I dared - enough to ensure that when the wheels are hard over on the outside, the inner rail head is just within the wheel tread width. Closely observing the behaviour of the stock convinces me that there is little benefit, (without wheel coning) nor any apparent disadvantage either.

The two main issues are almost certainly the significant degree of drag with the longer wheelbase vehicles, which increases notably with the additional length of wheelbase. The scrubbing effect of the steeper angles between the the rail head and tread centrelines act as an extremely effective brake force, and the tendency to "kick out" only occurs when the tender or wagons are under load.

It also (as tested so far) only happens between the loco and tender, so a problem with the drawbar, or the general coupling arrangement (closely following the prototype by the way) may well be a major factor, but not necessarily the prime cause.

It is important to note that no similar problems were ever encountered on the "portable", plastic track, despite the set curvature being an almost unbelievably ridiculous 2ft radius! Clearly in that case, the tough and rather "waxy" plastic offers so little contact resistance that all wheels just slither their way round without anything untoward happening, or least previously arousing any concern whatever!

I have heard it quoted that aluminium rail is regarded by some as superior to steel for garden railways, on account of the improved adhesion.

While I am not sure of that as fact, on our little railway anyway, there seems to be a bit too much grip?!!

Pete.
 
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