7mm Beware of the - Light - Brown Stuff!!!

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Hi all

An anomalous encounter with a certain manufacturer's flexi track has inspired made me put pen to paper, so to speak.

I had started to lay the track - outdoors - for Down Ampney (in the cooler evenings).
Quite a milestone after all of the other trials and tribulations and indeed in general (I hadn't put down any 'mainline' track for a few years). Anyway all went well, nice compound curves laid, with radii between 5' 6" and 6' 6", using the MK1 eyeball and a mirror, then backed up with track setters etc. I also left room for expansion on the track joints and all looked really good, stock ran well through it all - great!

Then last evening a problem became apparent. I had noticed that the 'chairs' weren't holding the rails as well as I had expected and some had stress - 'witness' - marks and some had broken, some may be thinking at this stage '....ah must be the heat...' but no no not the case, or so it seems .

I had used the same manufacturer's track (1 yard) as a test piece outdoors (for various 'experiments') and that was not affected - and still isnt - through snow, frost, and heat etc...

When I looked closer I noted - I had seen such before yet it didn't occur at the time that something was different - that this new box of track had lighter coloured brown/grey sleepers which had almost a matt finish (sorry it wont photograph all that well).

Most of this manufacturers' track is dark brown and shiny - all of such being made from UV resistant polypropylene (or similar).

In fact on the H&BLR, which uses the SM32 version of this manufacturer's track, the track is 11 years old now with no problems (the sleepers have matted down in the weather, yet still tough and resilient). I also know of others who use, as have I, the 7mm FS version and have had such down for 20 years or more, with no problems ....

BTW I will open the other two boxes of track that I have and see if they are dark brown and shiny or not.

Sadly when I take the track up - I cant risk leaving it outdoors now/for peace of mind etc. - some of it will get damaged, I hope however to use, what is salvageable, inside.

It all makes me wonder, is this a 'faulty' batch, or was it an experiment, in cost down (cost cutting), on the part of the manufacturer - with any problems not really coming to the fore as most customers will have used such indoors with a myriad of different fixing methods including ballasting (whereas we have to just rely on track pins) - and in addition no further damage from the elements/UV.

I then remembered that I had read that one or two garden railway bods had a similar problems and had switched to the more expensive C&L flexi-track...

I usually champion consumer rights and yet this time I shall, I believe, just have to walk away as I can not really log a formalised complaint (as I am confused as to why this has happened ). I expect that the heat has made the matter worse/sped the problems up, yet shouldn't as the track is designed for outdoor use, and the fact that we are just relying upon track pins to affix such too has also highlighted the problem.

Suffice to say, along with the timber/ply issue, I am now contemplating giving up the hobby as such holds little pleasure for me at the moment - time will tell ...

Anyway my advice to anyone purchasing OCEP track, is to look in the box before handing over any cash and check that the sleepers are a nice dark brown and very shiny!

Kind regards,

CME

 

[ZiderHead]

Does this manufacturer state that their track is designed for outdoor use? Their website is ... rather basic ...

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Does this manufacturer state that their track is designed for outdoor use? Their website is ... rather basic ...

Yes, on numerous occasions, in various publications et al., yet the outside usage isnt the real issue, the track is poor straight from the box (it looks and 'feels' different).

 

[Steve Cook]

You're not having much luck are you CME

Did you pre-curve the rail before laying the track? I ask as you seem to be laying at, or indeed slightly below, the recommended minimum radius for O gauge. I can't imagine that code 124 rail is going to assume that radius lightly, particularly when left outside. Failing that, I would get in contact with the manufacturer concerned - all we can do on the internet is sympathise with you, they actually can respond to your questions / points of view and the outcome may yet be a happy one.

Steve

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

You're not having much luck are you CME

Did you pre-curve the rail before laying the track? I ask as you seem to be laying at, or indeed slightly below, the recommended minimum radius for O gauge. I can't imagine that code 124 rail is going to assume that radius lightly, particularly when left outside. Failing that, I would get in contact with the manufacturer concerned - all we can do on the internet is sympathise with you, they actually can respond to your questions / points of view and the outcome may yet be a happy one.

Steve

Hi Steve

Thanks for the kind words.

TBH the rail doesn't really need pre-curving before laying and I am working to, by and large, GOG guidelines (ie 6' radius in a compound curve). 124 rail will bend very easily down to about 4' radius. We have gone down to that with heavier section rail (SM32) without any problems. On the prototype we would apply a check-rail though.

This matter is to do with the poor quality of the track/sleeper base (plastic) and not the weather or radii

In addition my test ( 1x Yard) of track has been bent into all sorts of configurations - and back again - and the sleeper/track base is fine (it was dark brown and shiny).

I have only written this up in open forum so that others can be made aware of the problem - as many who know me, will know that , if I have a problem with a supplier/product then I will tell them first, rather than whinge about it behind their backs, as some do on other forums.

Sadly in this case, I dont think the manufacturer will listen, I liken such to a paint warranty.

Eg. If a paint has a warrantied life of 20 years and such fails before that time and is brought the the manufacturer's attention then the manufacturer will then ask something along the lines of; '....was the substrate prepared and the paint applied all in accordance with our instructions/specs.?'. The customer replies '....yes is was, to the letter...'. The manufacturer then says '....then prove it....'

Back in the day when I worked for WR/RT if we had a requirement for paint (eg. for the Royal Albert Bridge or aspects of Dawlish Sea Wall et al.) then we would invite potential suppliers and manufacturers/contractors in so as to demo their products (perhaps even organise trials), then we would, if not already prepared, draw up a specs for such, apply rigorous terms and conditions and go out to tender for the best practice/method of working/product price etc. Then we would assess the returned tender documents/quotes and award the contract accordingly. The contract would then be handed over to contracts management and the specs/terms/conditions rigorously applied (hopefully, but that's another story!) . Throughout our engineers/internal customers (subject matter experts) would have provided their professional opinions and applied such to the specs and thus product (paint). Yet we imposed our T&Cs. Sadly I can not.

In addition look at, with the greatest respect, the 'confusion' that has been applied to this subject already in Posts # 2 & 4

It isnt the rail radius, or the heat, or the application of either, it is the track/sleeper base that is the problem, my best guess is that the mix/blend for injection moulding wasn't up to normal specs (one can see it in the colouration of the sleeper base and indeed before the track is laid because 'chairs' can easily be 'damaged' by just pressing them lightly with one's finger nail! That isn't the case with the test track which is of the darker shinier plastic)

I hope that clarifies the matter

TTFN

CME

 

[Neil]

I'm sorry you seem to be experiencing frustrations at the moment but ....

.... This matter is to do with the poor quality of the track/sleeper base (plastic) and not the weather or radii

In addition my test ( 1x Yard) of track has been bent into all sorts of configurations - and back again - and the sleeper/track base is fine (it was dark brown and shiny).

I have only written this up in open forum so that others can be made aware of the problem - as many who know me, will know that , if I have a problem with a supplier/product then I will tell them first, rather than whinge about it behind their backs, as some do on other forums.

.... your gloom seems to have got the better of reason and you've done exactly what you said you wouldn't do, whinge on the internet rather than tackle the manufacturer directly.

Sadly in this case, I dont think the manufacturer will listen, .....

Well if you don't tell them, they can't possibly listen.

 

[taliesin]

Hi, there was certainly an issue with their SM32 track when it was first released and when questioned some of the answers about the suitability of being used outdoors were a bit ambiguous. However they soon stated that they were now using the same UV resistant plastic as the german brand that was elephant proof. In fairness to them early 16 millers had been using the Bonds o Euston type of track with wooden sleepers and were used to slapping on the creosote, not known for being friendly to plastic.
I assume all their track likely to be used outdoors is supposed to be made using the same plastic so it might be worth following up, cheers Rob

 

[Jordan]

It all makes me wonder, is this a 'faulty' batch, or was it an experiment, in cost down (cost cutting), on the part of the manufacturer - with any problems not really coming to the fore as most customers will have used such indoors with a myriad of different fixing methods including ballasting (whereas we have to just rely on track pins) - and in addition no further damage from the elements/UV.

[Bold removed from quote] Isn't it worth going back to wherever you bought this track from, as a starting point? At least they might listen, and let you examine/compare their other stock, especially if you can take back a sample of this "new/improved" (as things that become worse are usually labeled) track for them to see?

 

[Steve Cook]

Hi CME
I'm not trying to add to the confusion The question was did you pre-bend the rail, the justification that followed was merely to imply that setting out smallish radius curves will increase the side loading on the chairs. Assuming the chairs had not failed on the track when in the box, then if you had pre-curved the rail and thus removed most of the side loading on the chairs, then the subsequent failure could be assigned to a combination of material and heat. If you didn't pre-curve the rail, you can add material stress to the two previously mentioned considerations. I agree, it sounds like the material is not up to scratch (based on your description), but if you are going to try and use the track somewhere else, then narrowing down the things that caused it to fail will help.

If the box of track was new, then all I can suggest is to take a photo of the two different sleeper finishes you have (from this box and another one) and get that over to the manufacturer and / or retailer (good suggestion Jordan) - it may just be a bad batch. I'd just be a bit wary of describing it as lighter coloured brown/grey sleepers which had almost a matt finish without any photographs though, as that just sounds like second hand track that has been outside

For what its worth I would suggest pre-curving the rail, whether its contrary to your previous experience or not. The track panel should hold its own shape when laid out and the track pins merely hold it in position on the board. That method will give you the best chance of long term, low maintenance track in the garden environment. If you are going to be running large radius curves then the above still holds true, it just isn't as critical.

Steve

 

[Phill Dyson]

Hi CME

Peco track is definitely designed for outdoor use, some of my track was burried in concrete for years before being recycled for further use on a wooden base........most of my mainline is the recycled stuff!

I would also be thinking along the lines of contacting your retailer or Peco direct. If it were me, I would be emailing Peco with photographic evidence of the problems

Cheers Phill

 

[Simon]

I don't understand the need for talking in riddles Martin, but assuming you are actually talking about Peco then for goodness sake contact them and talk about it.

I don't think I have ever come across another company with a better approach to "customer care" and I cannot for one moment imagine that they would "fob you off" if there is a genuine problem with their product.

And yes of course, what you did with it and how you laid it will be perfectly reasonable questions to ask in the course of working out what has actually happened.

Garden railways operate in what is a very harsh environment that will demand different approaches to indoor modeling, as far as I can see (and in my limited experience) they are bl**dy hard work, but the results can be very rewarding so I wouldn't give up if I were you

Simon

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

Hi all,

Some good news.

I have noted all of your comments thanks - please read on.....

I have four more boxes of track and at least two of them seem fine - again, shiny dark brown plastic with plenty of 'give' and flexibility. Laid 3-4 lengths and all has gone well thus far and no stress or witness marks etc I even used a test piece and cut the rails being really violent with the cutting disc (with plenty of heat transfer via friction) and the track-base ('chairs') all held firm, which in turn kept the rail straight and true (which is how all other track from this manufacturer has performed - over the past 30-40 years) On the other hand, the light brown track-base would not, could not, cope with even light work of a similar nature

One of my dad's friends/neighbours has had the exact same problem with 'OO' (sic) track from OCEP. He laid it, thought it looked 'different' with the same issues as I experienced and then in a short while he experienced more problems - oh BTW, he was using it for his OO garden railway! Long story short he had to lift the lot in question. Like my experience he found, prior to laying, that the plastic was brittle and would not hold the rail well, whatever the radius....

Steve , I appreciate what you are saying about pre-curving rail , indeed we have done so when laying large scale track on friend's layouts, yet laying 7mm FS flexi-track, to 6' radius, (when the plastic track base is 'fit for purpose') all is fine, it works as intended, without the need to pre-curve. Thanks for your thoughtful comments

I have had reason to complain, once before - along with others - directly to the manufacturer in question (I must say that the vast majority of their products have been fine and I have used their products for over 35 years or so now) and I am sad to report that it was like the 3rd Degree (without the honourable fellows being all that honourable! ). Indeed, I know of one society who has had numerous problems with a certain type/scale of OCEP wheel sets and yet cannot be 'heard' even though they are the biggest user of them! I gather, from other's, that it depends on whom you speak to and which way the wind is blowing as to what level of customer service is received - please read on though

I will state again for the record, this Thread was created so as to warn others to check the quality of the track prior to purchase (ie look for the dark brown shiny sleepers/track-base!).

As my track has been purchased from various, reputable retail sources, when at shows/on offer etc. (ie my 'Contract of Sale' is with them), over a period of time (last 2-3 years) when, like others I suspect, I could afford it etc., and as it is below the £300.00 threshold (see Sale of Goods & Services acts et al.) and over a year old (although unused) then I have little leverage in terms of my consumer rights.

I hope that this Thread can be viewed in the light and vein in which I created it, ie that checking such track prior to purchase is required.

I am not sure of the age of the various boxes of track I have - as they could have been dispatched from the manufacturer and then sat on a retailers' shelf for a while - so I have no way of flagging up to you guys or anyone else, any batch/dates/numbers etc.

Simon, I am not speaking in riddles, but as you have mentioned a specific manufacturer, I have to say that I could not possible comment, other than to say that I would find it very hard to prove a specific 'fault' with the product and therefore I am being diplomatic

Kind regards,

CME

 

[Jordan]

I will state again for the record, this Thread was created so as to warn others to check the quality of the track prior to purchase (ie look for the dark brown shiny sleepers/track-base!).

So why not just say so...? and you do seem to be still talking in riddles - otherwise why keep saying "OCEP"..??? Blimey we're all adults and can work it out!!!

Surely checking before buying is just plain common sense anyway?

Sorry but going on in multi-coloured, multi-size Fonts, with much use of bold is just getting a bit OTT in my opinion...

 

[Dikitriki]

Gents, I think we've gone far enough in this thread.

We can consider ourselves warned - thank you.

This is a 'play nicely' public announcement, brought to you from the FS

 

[mickoo]

..... as the german brand that was elephant proof.

Helga the elephant testing said track work in a secret Zeppelin shed in deepest Bavaria.



More secret footage of Helga arriving at said secret location

Sorry Rob, couldn't resist LOL

 

[taliesin]

No problem Mick, I am sure that some years a go LGB had a publicity picture of an elephant standing on their track to show how strong it was, I bet bird s..t sticks to it just like the other makes though, cheers Rob

 

[taliesin]

In an attempt to get this back on track (pardon the pun) I will have to assume a couple of things. I assume that Peco have not been around for so long with a generally cast iron reputation by selling shoddy products with a poor after sales reputation, therefore it would appear worth sending them a panel of sleepers with a letter explaining the situation including how you have stored the track, again I am assuming you have stored it in a decent environment, it is possible that they are aware there is a dud batch out there, they can soon tell if the track has been used or not and I would think that the plastic supplier could easily run a test to see if its the usual spec. A couple of quid and the time to write a letter versus a couple of boxes of track, worth trying I would have thought. They were certainly sensitive about the accusations that their SM32 track not being any good outdoors and now it's probably the market leader in that particular scale. Their response would be of interest to peeps on here I would have thought. I have wrote this in the attempt that it helps you get a satisfactory outcome, cheers Rob

 

[daifly]

I am sure that some years a go LGB had a publicity picture of an elephant standing on their track to show how strong it was

Luckily, elephants are not a common hazard in my part of the country!
Dave

 

[taliesin]

Great, i wasn't dreaming , cheers Rob

 

[CME & Bottlewasher]

In an attempt to get this back on track (pardon the pun) I will have to assume a couple of things. I assume that Peco have not been around for so long with a generally cast iron reputation by selling shoddy products with a poor after sales reputation, therefore it would appear worth sending them a panel of sleepers with a letter explaining the situation including how you have stored the track, again I am assuming you have stored it in a decent environment, it is possible that they are aware there is a dud batch out there, they can soon tell if the track has been used or not and I would think that the plastic supplier could easily run a test to see if its the usual spec. A couple of quid and the time to write a letter versus a couple of boxes of track, worth trying I would have thought. They were certainly sensitive about the accusations that their SM32 track not being any good outdoors and now it's probably the market leader in that particular scale. Their response would be of interest to peeps on here I would have thought. I have wrote this in the attempt that it helps you get a satisfactory outcome, cheers Rob

Hi Taliesin,

Thanks for you concern and comments - it is appreciated.

As I said, I wrote this up so as to help other modellers

To answer your comments and questions;

1) Yes the track has been stored safely in the appropriate packaging in which it came etc;
2) The manufacturer has been contacted.

Suffice to say that they have been spoken to and appear to be in denial....they even denied the issue with SM32 trackwork (stating that they hadnt had problems with their track for 30-40 years [in precis and not verbatim
], the response was a polite yet vague (I had someone else listen into the call and they said, even before I mentioned such, that the fellow was polite, yet there was something in his tone of voice - I had detected exactly the same tone and had the same insight)....

As I said, and I am not the only one to experience a mixed approach to customer service, it seems/depends on which way the wind is blowing as to the response one gets from them. I have used their products for years and have only ever had a problem with one item and the retailer referred me to the manufacturer who's response was, back then, less than impressive when the product was returned. Then a cosy fireside chat reminding them of their duty of care, relative to the retailer (and me) and re. their conduct as honourable fellows then ensued and the problem was resolved. This was a number of years back.

I hope that clarifies.

Kind regards,

CME