Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

Discussion in 'Gallery' started by oldravendale, 2 October 2020.

  1. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    Similar to @LarryG I do like the look of the the Grange class and this composition is great* - it's close but if I had to vote for one I think my preference is for your original version, I do prefer the sharper more pronounced contrast in the photo with the blacks being really black but as you say it's personal preference.

    *I know you can't change it in this photo but IMHO I don't like the tender - I don't think it complements the loco in this case. I'm not an expert by any means on the class but my understanding is that the later locos were fitted with larger tenders, the tender flare lined up with the bottom of the cab windows and cutout. I prefer them with the larger tender as I think it balances out the loco better.
    oldravendale likes this.
  2. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Thanks for the additions, Adrian. I actually quite like the smaller tender, but as you rightly say, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    This one is "Old Oak Common. 15th February 1958". It's one of the early Castles which for reasons I can't explain always looked sleeker than the later versions. 4091 Dudley Castle was an Old Oak Common engine at the time of this photo but had been all over the system since building in 1925. This was pretty typical of the way Old Oak turned its engines out right up to around 1960. This is perhaps notable in that it was to be withdrawn less than a year after this photo was taken, on 19th January 1959. It was scrapped in March 1959 at Swindon.

    That's a nice incidental study of an ex-private owner wagon to the left of the loco as well, although there's no evidence of the previous owner's name on this one.

    img413 TM Old Oak Common 15 Feb 58 - Final Copyright copy.jpg

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  3. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Oh, yes there is. Not much though, just the top plank. Not sure what it says yet. Very low number and unusually poorly signwritten.

    Keep them coming.
  4. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Old habits die hard and I still tend to print "soft for publication" in the hope I hit the bock makers wants. Reproduction used to be a merciless destroyer of finesse with delicate smoke effects going bald and detail in the shadow areas going almost solid black. But I totally agree about personal preferences.
    Last edited: 13 January 2021
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  5. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    Possibly "SHELTON"? Photos in PO Wagons 7 p104 et seq.
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  6. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Yes, I agree. I was just about to post. It looks like the second plank has been reused as a top plank.
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  7. AJC

    AJC Western Thunderer

    Yes, I'd agree with that - almost a complete replanking by appearances, except perhaps for the bottom where the rather eccentrically applied running number is.

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  8. JimG

    JimG Western Thunderer

    You almost can from the top plank. The last three letters could be "TON", and the third letter looks as though it could be an "E" or an "F" Not sure about the other letters but I'm sure a fit could be found from a list of private owners in the area.


    [Edit] Should read the rest of the messages before posting. :):):)
  9. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    I think the bottom plank and the curb rail might be the most recent replacements. As it is after 1957 there is a good chance that these timbers have a thin coat of wagon grey on them, or a primer - there is no grain or knots visible. The 13T is properly written and it looks like this plank and the one above have been painted black to cover a 2" wartime owners name inscription. The question for modelling it is how much of the original red paint survives amongst the replacement planks. I have nearly convinced myself that there is some writing on one of the door planks.
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  10. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    That's such a lot of stuff about a humble wagon. In view of the interest I've masked off just the relevant section. Is it possible to tell from this what sort of wagon this is and its likely origin? Certainly the evidence of prior ownership as remarked by Overseer is clearer.

    img413 TM 4091 Dudley Castle Old Oak Common 15 Feb 58 - Final Copyright copy.jpg

    Yet another Castle. Again "Old Oak Common 15th February 1958". This one belonged to Old Oak where it had been allocated since being built in 1949. There's a Hall next door and another wagon, apart from those on the ramp to the coaling stage, although writ somewhat smaller the one in the previous image. Quite what the crane was doing there I cannot guess. 7024 Powis Castle moved on to Stafford Road and Oxley before being withdrawn in February 1965. It went to Cashmore's (Newport) where it was finally disposed of in the following May.

    img414 TM Old Oak Common 15 Feb 58 - Final.  Copyright copy.jpg

  11. SimonT

    SimonT Western Thunderer

    can you put up a photo of 4037? I know a bloke who could do with some!

  12. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    It is an 8 plank wagon to the 1923 RCH standard. It has an end door but no bottom doors. As it has disc wheels it was probably built in the later 1930s. Without being able to see a builders plate it could have been built by any of the wagon building firms. A Slaters kit would be perfect to model it, just ask for disc wheels when ordering.
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  13. Dog Star

    Dog Star Western Thunderer

    I agree with Fraser - RCH 13T 8-plk end door without bottom doors. What is shown in the enlarged image - and not visible in the original posting - is a chalk mark to the LHS of the wagon side... what is written here is the P-series number to be allocated to the wagon during the most recent visit to a wagon repair shop. I have spoken to Ian Pope about backtracking from the P-number to the original owner and Ian is not able to help us, possibly Paul Bartlett may know more on the subject of re-numbering of the PO-wagons post nationalisation.

    regards, Graham
  14. Dan Randall

    Dan Randall Western Thunderer

    Hi Brian

    Given the number of locos allocated to OOC and the amount of clinker and ash generated by them to be disposed of (some can be seen behind the tender), perhaps the crane is simply there to load wagons, for its removal?


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  15. AJC

    AJC Western Thunderer

    It looks like an ash crane - even quite small sheds (Yeovil Town comes to mind) might have them. I would not be surprised if somewhere the size of Old Oak Common didn't have more than one.

    Here's a few shots of the (smaller) Yeovil one:

    Yeovil Town Shed Activity

    Yeovil Town Shed

    Yeovil Town steam shed late 50s early 60s

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  16. Osgood

    Osgood Western Thunderer

    A favourite line of Arthur Negus springs to mind :D

    Arthur Negus.jpg Ash Cranes OOC.jpg
  17. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    Stunning picture at #510 Brian, perfect lighting and a brilliant scanning, what's not to like. Apart from that there are two things that breathe life into the picture, the wisps of steam beneath the crane jib and the solitary figure in relief against the huts, it might all be happenstance but glorious and up there with George Heiron, made my day has that.
  18. Rob R

    Rob R Western Thunderer

    Not forgetting the fire iron leaning on the tender..
  19. hrmspaul

    hrmspaul Western Thunderer

    Dave Larkin has written various articles about the P series, and is now doing a series of books, rather delayed in publishing at only one a year and he is concerned about how long it will take, like all of us he is not getting any younger.

    Looks like it has been shopped and the very early P number re-applied and rather better than many WR locos would be getting numbered in the near future. No reason to have a drop of paint applied since 1948, the repainting of these wagons with wooden frames didn't start until late 1959.

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  20. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Paul, what is the 'late 1959' date based on? I don't have an official source but I thought the change in policy happened sometime during 1957. I just had a flick through 'Steam in England' by Rodney Lissenden and there are several illustrations of grey painted PO wagons dated before 1959. R.C. Riley seems to have been meticulous in his record keeping. As an example, page 108 has a photo of N5 69262 at Stamford East on 25 June 1958 with a grey painted ex PO wagon as the first vehicle behind the loco. The wagon looks like it has been in service for a while since painting.