Prototype PhilH's miscellaneous photo album

PhilH

Western Thunderer
This thread may turn out to be a very mixed collection of photos if it continues.

First some "light relief" in the form of a few images from the Far East, as at the moment I'm digitally scanning slides I took 45 years ago on a trip to Indonesia and Thailand.


Java 208B.jpg

A passenger train departs from Tanahabang Station in Djakarta behind a Henschel diesel loco. Riding on the outside of crowded trains was not uncommon in this part of the world but, although its not too clear in the photo, the loco cab is also full of passengers !


Java 210B.jpg

Passenger accommodation also extends to the loco cab on this mixed train headed by two cylinder compound 4‑4‑0 No.5105 built by Hanomag of Germany in 1900, a scaled down version of the Prussian Class P4 4‑4‑0

Java 212B.jpg


Java 020BB.jpg

Rather less crowded, we were riding on a branch line train of two coaches and a van rather excessively powered by a large 2-6-6-0 Mallet. The friendly crew allowed two of us to ride in the cab for the whole journey but we got a better view of the scenery and less of the heat inside the cab by sitting on top of the tender oil tank.


Java 163AB.jpg

A crowd of locals had gathered to watch the re-railing operation of a derailed branch line freight train but obviously found the group of visiting rail enthusiasts more interesting.


Java 125B.jpg

The Surabaya steam tram with locomotive built by Beyer Peacock of Manchester in 1884


 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
Many years ago a friend purchased a secondhand book and found within it an envelope containing 14 negatives. As he had no interest in photography he passed the negatives on to me, which were duly printed. There was no indication with the negatives on where, when or by who they were taken although some were obviously taken shortly after the 1923 Grouping. What is fairly remarkable is the range of subjects covered, which includes locomotives from the following pre-grouping railways: Cleator & Workington Junction, Furness, L&NWR, Midland, Highland, North Eastern and Great Northern.

Several years ago they were posted on another forum with the information I was able to find myself and several members kindly provided more information about some of them. Some members here may have seen them already but others may have not, so I thought it worthwhile to post the photos again here. Queries still remain about several of the locations and any additional information would be most welcome.
The original information is shown in normal type and additional information from members of the previously mentioned forum is shown in italics.


LMS 11100 (2)B.jpg

LMS 11100 was the first of the 5 handsome Baltic tank locos built by Kitson in 1920/21 for the Furness Railway and used on express and mail trains between Carnforth and Whitehaven. The loco is standing on the ex Furness line at the north end of Carnforth Station in front of the 1903 Carnforth Station Junction signal box. The buildings on the right are on the far side of a road behind the wall and are still standing today (or they were when Google street view passed that way !) but the chimney of Carnforth Ironworks behind has disappeared.


LMS 11100A (2)B.jpg


FR 66 (2)B.jpg

Furness Railway No.66, one of 55 similar locos built for the railway by Sharp Stewart between 1866 and 1884. I believe No.66 was built in 1871 and scrapped in 1916, and if this is correct the photo was taken considerably earlier than the previous one, although the chimney behind appears to be the same Carnforth Ironworks chimney, in which case the location would be Carnforth Yard just south of the main loco shed.

FR 66 (3)B.jpg

In the distance to the right is a Furness Railway goods brake van and 0-6-0T(?). Unfortunately the details on the locos oval plate are too indistinct to determine the loco number.

tbc
 
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PhilH

Western Thunderer
MILLGROVE 1 (2)N.jpg

MILLGROVE was built by Peckett & Sons of Bristol in 1919 for the Cleator & Workington Junction Railway as their number 9. It followed a similar loco supplied by Peckett in 1907, No.8 HUTTON HALL, and both were to the maker's standard Class Q design although modified with vacuum brake and Ramsbottom safety valves. After the Grouping it was allocated the number 11567 by the LMS as shown in the photo. MILLGROVE had a relatively short life, as I believe it was withdrawn by the LMS in 1928 and scrapped.
In the photo it appears to be at the end of a station platform with the end of an overall roof spanning the tracks just in view to the left - you can just make out the decorative cast support and glass roof panels. The end of the wall supporting the roof has a circular opening with decoration in the brickwork above. There is a platform awning on the far side, presumably on another platform outside the overall roof. Just in view on the right is the end of a signal cabin (?) with an unusual end window comprising 4 panes but with an additional circular pane in the centre.


MILLGROVE 2 (2)B.jpg

The second view is from a slightly better negative with the crew posing for the photographer, but appears to be at the same location with the same earth bank behind the loco as the previous photo.

Suggested location is the South end of Carnforth Station, which changed after rebuilding in 1938.


LMS 1659 (2)B.jpg

LMS 1659 an ex Midland Railway Johnson Class 1 0-6-0T probably still in a rather worn MR livery and with a comparison of LMS/MR wagon livery in the background.

It is Midland 1102 class 0-6-0T which in 1920 was shedded at the Midland's Carnforth shed. Like most of the shunting locos up in the North West it had an overall cab fitted. It may well have stayed at Carnforth until withdrawal in 1928. The shed is still in existence situated on the north side of the line to Wennington just east of the A6 and in use as a transport depot. The photo may well have been taken on shed as the wagons are ex MR loco coal ones.
 
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PhilH

Western Thunderer
LMS 14418 (2)B.jpg

LMS 14418 "BEN MHEADHOIN" an ex Highland Railway 'Large Ben' 4-4-0 with its original 6 wheel tender replaced by a 8 wheel tender originally fitted to an 0-6-0. I assume the device on the cab side is a single line tablet catching apparatus. It is at the head of a mixed train comprising an open wagon covered by a tarpaulin, a 6-wheel van with end doors and ventilated sides, another two or possibly three open wagons also covered by tarpaulins, a couple of full brakes or parcel vans - the first a bogie and the second possibly 6-wheel, followed by a number of coaches. In the distance is a steel lattice footbridge followed by a lattice girder overbridge. There is a small shelter on the near platform but the main building is on the far side - the roof and chimneys can be seen above the train behind the near signal post. The roof of a signal cabin can be seen above the loco tender. Note the two sidings in the foreground laid with flat bottom rail spiked directly to the sleepers.

This is Georgemas Junction on the Highland's Far North Line, view towards Wick. Comparing the scene with photos I took there in 1988 and allowing for the passage of time just about everything fits, down to the small plate (or whatever) fixed to the lattice in the centre of the footbridge. The overbridge beyond has been replaced by a new reinforced concrete structure. The Thurso line trails in (facing Wick) behind the train between the signal cabin and the station.


That is indeed Georgemas Junction; you can see the water column that served the end of the platform for the Thurso branch. The water column beside the signal is characteristically in the form of a Doric Column and as far as I know is the only one of its type on the Highland.
The signal serves the platform that the train is standing in and the goods loop to the right of the platform. The lower arms are "shunt ahead" signals and allowed the train to enter the block section without completely blocking back - given that this is the only signal that has been operated, the train must be remarshalling; possibly the merging of a train from Thurso to form the joint train south.
The first vehicle looks as if it may be a fish wagon, the second is a WCJS dia 107 fish van, they must be fitted to be at the head of the train so this would make sense. You can see the Highland TPO in the middle of the train (the flat sided thinner looking one). Ben Mheadhoin was outshopped in LMS red in Feb 1924 and was repainted black in 1930 - the paintwork looks pristine so I would say no later than 1926 for this picture. (info from Mark Tatlow)


 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
All those are fantastic images, Phil. I'm lucky enough to be the custodian of a few images from the 1930s and several of those are on glass plates so to have earlier photos on film is something of a coup. Suggest you just check that these negs are not on a nitrate base. I can advise an easy first test if needed. The problem with nitrate is that, under poor storage (which doesn't appear to be anything of an issue here) nitrate has a tendency to ignite spontaneously. If stored cool and dry it's fine.

I was quite convinced that negs from the '20s are most likely to be on glass. These are absolutely wonderful.

Have you enhanced them and removed scratches and dirt? I've done that on all mine.

Brian
 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
LMS 8015 (2) B.jpg

LMS 8015 an ex LNWR Special DX 0-6-0, the initials LMS are just visible on the lower cab side. Nothing to give a clue where this was taken.


LMS 7953 (2)B.jpg

LMS 7953 a Beames 0-8-4T, originally intended for South Wales but I believe sometimes used for heavy shunting elsewhere. To the right of the loco is a wall with the tops of a couple of vans visible on the other side, so there are other lines between that wall and the high retaining wall.


LMS 6956 (2B).jpg

LMS 6956 an ex LNWR 4-6-2T, sometimes referred to as tank version of the Prince of Wales 4-6-0s but actually introduced some months before the tender locos and with significant differences such as smaller diameter wheels and a belpaire instead of round top firebox.
The location is unusual, the building on the right is passenger accommodation but on a platform virtually at track level. Inside the doorway is a sign pointing to 'Ladies Room' and next to the doorway outside is an oval plate with the number 99. The actual platform is under and beyond the overbridge and situated on a fairly sharp curve to the right. The platform has oil lamps, a nameboard and a seat, also some loose drainage pipes, but is devoid of any shelter.

This is Lowton Junction, looking north. The lines on the left are from Parkside West Jct (L&M to Liverpool) and those on the right to Parkside East Jct (L&M to Manchester). These latter were the original lines from the Wigan Branch Railway to the L&M; the west facing Junction didn't come until later. The Bridge was demolished in the early 1960s to allow overhead wires from the Liverpool direction and the spur to Manchester currently has the masts in place, but not yet wired. The platforms still survive.


Parkside Station (2)B.jpg

Not far away from the previous photo, this is the remains of Parkside Station on the Liverpool & Manchester line. Its actually situated opposite the Parkside East Junction mentioned in the previous caption. Opened in 1839 and closed in 1878, see:
Disused Stations: Parkside Station (2nd site)
 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
NER 1020 (2)B.jpg

NER 1020 a BTP 0-4-4T on an auto train with coaches front and rear. It appears to be at a fairly major station.


LNER 1242 (2)B.jpg

LNER 1242 an ex North Eastern R1 class 4-4-0 with early LNER lettering including the '&'. The building behind visible on the right appears to be a loco shed. Partly visible behind the tender is a large tank loco with a trailing bogie (NER D/LNER H1 Class 4-4-4T perhaps ?), beyond another loco with its drain cocks open and yet another behind the row of three lamps, so presumably the location is a loco depot.


LNER 3986 (2)B.jpg

LNER 3986 an ex Great Northern C1 (LNER C2) Class.


 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
All those are fantastic images, Phil. I'm lucky enough to be the custodian of a few images from the 1930s and several of those are on glass plates so to have earlier photos on film is something of a coup. Suggest you just check that these negs are not on a nitrate base. I can advise an easy first test if needed. The problem with nitrate is that, under poor storage (which doesn't appear to be anything of an issue here) nitrate has a tendency to ignite spontaneously. If stored cool and dry it's fine.

I was quite convinced that negs from the '20s are most likely to be on glass. These are absolutely wonderful.

Have you enhanced them and removed scratches and dirt? I've done that on all mine.

Brian

Brian,

I haven't treated the negatives in any way and they are quite free of dirt and scratches. Some are a little on the "thin" side (image wise), but they've all reproduced reasonably well. Most are approximately 13.5 cm x 8 cm, but the two Millgrove ones are smaller at 11 cm x 6.5 cm.

Its quite possible that they could be copies from earlier negatives, as most would have been taken nearly 100 years ago. The only clue as to their origins is that they came in an envelope from Lennies, 46 Princes Street, Edinburgh, but I don't think that's much help.

Philip
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
That's interesting, Philip. I've found this on the web:Lennie  -  46 Princes Street  -  Jewellers, Opticians, Photographic Apparatus

Reference is made to the shop being at 46 Princes Street from 1856 to 1921 so certainly contemporary with your photos. The negs 6.5 x 11 are a ringer for 116 size roll film which was made between 1899 - 1984. (So my earlier suggestion that glass plates would have been the likely origin is blown out of the water!) There was also a film size 122, 3 1/4" x 5 1/2", close to your measured 13.5 cm x 8 cm. which existed between 1903 and 1971. So, this gets us no nearer to knowing whether these are original photos or copy negatives.

If you are interested in investigating further there should be some printing on the film edge. Try to determine what that says. If it's Kodak there should be a "Kodak Safety Film" edge print. Somewhere in that script will be a dot, high or low, between two of the letters which will confirm plant of manufacture and also a date code - two symbols, square, triangle, circle etc. If you have that it can be used to determine year of manufacture. There remain a couple of issues. Firstly I don't know when Kodak started to use that coding system. Secondly I'd need to find a source of the information to lead us back to the date, but that'll be published somewhere.

If it's not Kodak there should still be some edge printing and researching that may give some source data.

Of course, you may not be interested in following up something as esoteric as film types and dates although with luck and a following wind this info could lead to establishing an approximate date for the photos. Even if these are copy negs it's possible that the edge print of the originals may have printed through.

(Please forgive the ramblings - I was a product specialist for a few years at Kodak in the late '60s/early '70s hence these rather mind bending suggestions.)

Whatever the result these are stunning photos and the quality is remarkable.

Brian
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer

LNER 1242 an ex North Eastern R1 class 4-4-0 with early LNER lettering including the '&'. The building behind visible on the right appears to be a loco shed. Partly visible behind the tender is a large tank loco with a trailing bogie (NER D/LNER H1 Class 4-4-4T perhaps ?), beyond another loco with its drain cocks open and yet another behind the row of three lamps, so presumably the location is a loco depot.




The shot of 1242 is possibly at Starbeck shed, Harrogate 50D. The chimney on the side of the shed fits ?

Starbeck.jpg

Explore georeferenced maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland

Col.
 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
Hopefully this will fall in to the something useful category - if the film is Kodak.

I've now found this. All you need to know in one handy document.....

https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles/motion/Guide_to_Identifying_Year_of_Manufacture.pdf

Brian

Brian,
Thanks for the information, very useful to know.
I've checked the negatives again and there are no markings of any kind along the edges of the film. The sizes I gave before were the approximate exposed areas, the actual film height (in relation to the subject) of the larger negatives is exactly 90mm, and the width varies with the ends slightly uneven, which I think indicates that they were cut from a roll of 90mm wide film. The smaller two negatives seem to have been cut from a roll of 69mm wide film.
If I've got the scrapping date of Furness Railway No.66 correct, that photo at least must have been taken over 100 years ago. As you can see from the enlargement the detail comes out quite well, so if they are copy negatives they are very good copies.

Philip
 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
I saved the best until last - well the best for me anyway.

PRESTON B.jpg

PRESTON was an 0-4-0WT built by E.Borrows & Sons of St.Helens in 1904 for the Sutton Heath & Lea Green Collieries Ltd. Borrows built about 40 locomotives of this design between 1875 and 1913 which were unusual because the valve gear was located outside the frames but behind the wheels. The absence of valve gear between the frames allowed the rear axle to be positioned under the front of the firebox so that the overall length of the loco could be kept short, an advantage in the restricted layouts of factory systems. The main customers were the local Pilkington Bros. glass works and several chemical works. Remarkably for such a small production no less than three are preserved, including one of the former Pilkington Bros. locos, WINDLE, on the Middleton Railway.

The photograph is thought to have been taken at Lea Green Colliery in the exchange sidings adjacent to the Liverpool and Manchester line. PRESTON also worked for some time at the colliery company's Sherdley Colliery in St.Helens and was sold from there when the colliery closed in 1944 to Sir W.G. Armstrong Whitworth & Co (Shipbuilders) Ltd, Walker-on-Tyne, Northumberland. Its subsequent fate is unknown.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
All things considered. Philip, I'd guess those are copy negs. The appearance is a little higher in contrast than I'd expect on an original neg, even accepting that contrast is not too difficult to control when copying in black and white. Also those neg sizes look entirely feasible. In fact Kodak cut roll film in 70mm strips which accounts for one of the neg sizes. The 90mm one is also a possible, although an unusual cut for a roll film. Perhaps those are sheet film. Those sizes fit with the period quite well.

Shame there's no edge print. There are other ways of checking, for example are any of the defects printed through, or are they in the neg emulsion itself? That would require quite a forensic examination and that's not a realistic proposition. Which makes me realise that I'm now probably one of a much declining number who are sufficiently experienced to make such an examination.

When I was working we did a lot of work n photos of ghosts which, of course, never were.:))

Brian
 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
All things considered. Philip, I'd guess those are copy negs. The appearance is a little higher in contrast than I'd expect on an original neg, even accepting that contrast is not too difficult to control when copying in black and white. Also those neg sizes look entirely feasible. In fact Kodak cut roll film in 70mm strips which accounts for one of the neg sizes. The 90mm one is also a possible, although an unusual cut for a roll film. Perhaps those are sheet film. Those sizes fit with the period quite well.

Shame there's no edge print. There are other ways of checking, for example are any of the defects printed through, or are they in the neg emulsion itself? That would require quite a forensic examination and that's not a realistic proposition. Which makes me realise that I'm now probably one of a much declining number who are sufficiently experienced to make such an examination.

When I was working we did a lot of work n photos of ghosts which, of course, never were.:))

Brian


Brian,
I'm not quite sure how correct your conclusion is based on contrast as the original scans have been edited in Photoshop and contrast added where required. However if you are sure they are copy negs I'd better take them off as I won't be the copyright holder.

Philip
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
That's a perfectly reasonable response, Philip. And those film sizes are right for camera film as well as sheet copy film.

I reckon you are entirely OK to continue to use them. My comments were entirely in the interests of trying to establish some firm dates, even if only approximate.

Brian
 

PhilH

Western Thunderer
Now for something completely different

C164.23B.jpg

Rich Morris's Monorail steam loco at Blaenau Ffestiniog, its a 0-2-0​


PSMT 001B.jpg

Another different kind of Monorail system at the Delhi Railway Museum from the Patiala State Monorail Trainway. The locomotive was built by Orenstein & Koppel in 1908, one of 4 built for the line.


Coming next - Class 37s on the North Wales Coast Line

C16906BB.jpg

37415 at Conwy on the 13.23 Holyhead to Manchester 10/4/2000

 
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