7mm Penmaenpool in the late 1950s - Now Moor Street!
- Thread starter Focalplane
- Start date
simond
Western Thunderer
I’m surprised the local government & parks authority can’t help.
This isn’t a great deal of use either, and unfortunately the 25 inch maps don’t seem to cover Penmaen
Explore georeferenced maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland
Good news on the canvas though.
Atb
Simon
This isn’t a great deal of use either, and unfortunately the 25 inch maps don’t seem to cover Penmaen
Explore georeferenced maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland
Good news on the canvas though.
Atb
Simon
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Thanks, Simon, Chris
I do have some old maps (somewhere, I am a bit disorganized just now!) which help but there is nothing like using a measuring tape (or laser). And it may be that the ?new owners* of the hotel will give me access to the paperwork this summer when I return. Meantime I have plenty to do.
Paul
*There was a for sale sign on the hotel annex wall about 2 years ago.
I do have some old maps (somewhere, I am a bit disorganized just now!) which help but there is nothing like using a measuring tape (or laser). And it may be that the ?new owners* of the hotel will give me access to the paperwork this summer when I return. Meantime I have plenty to do.
Paul
*There was a for sale sign on the hotel annex wall about 2 years ago.
Pencarrow
Western Thunderer
Is the attached PDF any use?
Snowdonia application ref NP5/57/524G
WPHAPPDETAIL<a%20href%3Dwphappcriteria.display>Search%20Criteria<%2Fa>%20>%20<a%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=411635%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=wphappsresweek2%26BackURL=<a%20href%3Dwphappcriteria.display>Search%20Criteria<%2Fa>%27>Search%20Results</a>
Snowdonia application ref NP5/57/524G
WPHAPPDETAIL<a%20href%3Dwphappcriteria.display>Search%20Criteria<%2Fa>%20>%20<a%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=411635%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=wphappsresweek2%26BackURL=<a%20href%3Dwphappcriteria.display>Search%20Criteria<%2Fa>%27>Search%20Results</a>
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Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Chris
Thank you so much for all this! I am not sure how I missed it, but then I don't know my way around bureaucracy in the UK like you obviously do.
The various plans will be most useful, particularly when combined with period photos from the late 1950s to delete the later additions.
Thank you! Paul
Thank you so much for all this! I am not sure how I missed it, but then I don't know my way around bureaucracy in the UK like you obviously do.
The various plans will be most useful, particularly when combined with period photos from the late 1950s to delete the later additions.
Thank you! Paul
Pencarrow
Western Thunderer
No problem Paul. Must admit it took a fair bit of detective work on the planning website to locate as most of my search criteria failed to get hits. As the place is being developed I was convinced there should be something. This sort of thing is part of my job at times so nothing unusual.
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
All my recent efforts have been on other projects (Princess Coronation, Side Lines coaches for the locomotive) but one coach Period I Corridor Brake Third will be used on Penmaenpool and it is nearing completion:
Of course, when I say "nearly" then there is some wishful thinking going on. But the interior is complete except for the glazing and the brass fittings are showing up nicely against the BR early red paint work. The coach needs numbering and the corridor connectors plus standard couplers below.
Also I have yet to build the bogies and the current ones are from a Period III Porthole.
Paul
Of course, when I say "nearly" then there is some wishful thinking going on. But the interior is complete except for the glazing and the brass fittings are showing up nicely against the BR early red paint work. The coach needs numbering and the corridor connectors plus standard couplers below.
Also I have yet to build the bogies and the current ones are from a Period III Porthole.
Paul
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
A gap of 2 weeks and now another coach for Penmaenpool. I have owned it for some time but it is maroon, the only BR colour that Dapol chose to issue it in and the prototype probably never was maroon as they were withdrawn before maroon was introduced. So now it is crimson.
I followed what LarryG did with his, in fact I copied it all down, including his photos, so that I would get it right!
Taking off the roof was easier than I thought, I must have pressed some hidden trigger to "open sesame". Taking out the LED strip was easy but removing the glazing was not - though it all came out eventually without breakage. I took off all the brass wire grab rails as well, then taped off the frame as best I could and also filled the empty interior with tape and tissues to minimize overspray.
You can see that I used "Frogtape" which interestingly is not sold in France!
Next I gave both sides a dose of Halfords' grey plastic primer, followed by another dose of Halfords' red primer:
I did consider replacing the thick acrylic windows with thin sheeting but this didn't look right as the walls are "plastic thick" rather than "brass thin". But before rebuilding the coach, here is the crimson spray job:
The next phase was to paint out any crimson overspray on the underlying frame as well as copy LarryG's example of adding black paint to some of the equipment and add-ons to the body shell. Then re-assembly, except I left out the interior lighting strip, on purpose, and have yet to re-install the brass wire grab handles, etc.
The roof isn't quite back on right and W 34 W needs to be added but otherwise, job done! The Oswestry 89A 14XX 1459 is well pleased and so am I!
I followed what LarryG did with his, in fact I copied it all down, including his photos, so that I would get it right!
Taking off the roof was easier than I thought, I must have pressed some hidden trigger to "open sesame". Taking out the LED strip was easy but removing the glazing was not - though it all came out eventually without breakage. I took off all the brass wire grab rails as well, then taped off the frame as best I could and also filled the empty interior with tape and tissues to minimize overspray.
You can see that I used "Frogtape" which interestingly is not sold in France!
Next I gave both sides a dose of Halfords' grey plastic primer, followed by another dose of Halfords' red primer:
I did consider replacing the thick acrylic windows with thin sheeting but this didn't look right as the walls are "plastic thick" rather than "brass thin". But before rebuilding the coach, here is the crimson spray job:
The next phase was to paint out any crimson overspray on the underlying frame as well as copy LarryG's example of adding black paint to some of the equipment and add-ons to the body shell. Then re-assembly, except I left out the interior lighting strip, on purpose, and have yet to re-install the brass wire grab handles, etc.
The roof isn't quite back on right and W 34 W needs to be added but otherwise, job done! The Oswestry 89A 14XX 1459 is well pleased and so am I!
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Larry, I may have had a memory blip but I seem to remember reading that old LMS coaches were given simple crimson paint if they were not going to be used on anything but an occasional summer excursion. I imagined that this coach would be dragged out of some siding in Lancashire for an SO excursion. I plan to weather it accordingly, one of these days.
I suppose I could add the cream. . . . I have the paint!
I suppose I could add the cream. . . . I have the paint!
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Having stopped two builds (Princess Coronation and Castle) to gather my thoughts and gain strength to continue I have done some thinking down in the the train room. About Penmaenpool and if it has a future.
Some time ago on a different forum LarryG was contemplating change because he couldn't see operations at Carrog being interesting enough. This struck a chord because at Penmaenpool, even on a summer SO timetable, the station was a very sleepy place. Attractive? Yes. Busy? No. I was also restricted to route availability but I like big tender engines and I already have some ex-LMS locos and coaches.
I have enough space for a continuous double oval with 6ft minimum radii. I would like to run 6 to 8 coach expresses but also a wide range of lesser trains. I have often thought about a station on the North Warwickshire Line and Earlswood would be a good choice because it was where the heaviest trains were banked up from Stratford-upon-Avon. But such a layout would be a round and round. No interesting terminus facility to make life interesting. I also have a 60ft turntable which would be surplus to such a layout.
For some reason I never thought about Moor Street Station, the northern terminus for the line. Until now!
I would have to invoke several Rule 1s, but not as many as you might think. Moor Street was not just a suburban terminus. It had the GWR Northern Division main line running past into Snow Hill Tunnel. It had long distance trains pulled by tender engines such as Castles and Halls. It also had visits from auto trains on a Honeybourne/Worcester service and LM(R) trains also visited both the terminus and passed by on the through lines. Much of the evidence for these comes from warwickshirerailways.com. Remember that during the WCML and New Street electrification program there were all sorts of diversions.
Plus there were the traversers! Space saving releases for tank engines but rated to 170 tons so large tender engines could be released to turn at "Tyseley" (where the turntable would be used). I have done a quick sketch using Anyrail software and the railway room could handle a double oval with one long storage loop running along the walls with a spur off to Moor Street running diagonally across the room. There is a track plan from 1914 when about half the station was in operation and I would freeze this plan as still being active in the 1950s.
Another advantage is the availability of ready to plonk buildings, etc. I would not necessarily reproduce the restored station building, fine as it is, it might be done in half relief, while I could put Penmaenpool's engine shed to good use as a staging point for busy suburban tank engines! The back scenes would be cityscapes from the period, well illustrated on-line.
Goods trains? Only on the main line but as anyone who spotted at Snow Hill will attest, the centre two tracks were always being used for fast and local transfer freights, pulled by anything from a pannier to an 8F or Black 5. I would not model the extensive GWR goods shed at Moor Street, simply not enough space.
So, more thought is needed but the existing framework would need only minor alterations and all the track could be re-used. What have I got to lose?
Paul
Some time ago on a different forum LarryG was contemplating change because he couldn't see operations at Carrog being interesting enough. This struck a chord because at Penmaenpool, even on a summer SO timetable, the station was a very sleepy place. Attractive? Yes. Busy? No. I was also restricted to route availability but I like big tender engines and I already have some ex-LMS locos and coaches.
I have enough space for a continuous double oval with 6ft minimum radii. I would like to run 6 to 8 coach expresses but also a wide range of lesser trains. I have often thought about a station on the North Warwickshire Line and Earlswood would be a good choice because it was where the heaviest trains were banked up from Stratford-upon-Avon. But such a layout would be a round and round. No interesting terminus facility to make life interesting. I also have a 60ft turntable which would be surplus to such a layout.
For some reason I never thought about Moor Street Station, the northern terminus for the line. Until now!
I would have to invoke several Rule 1s, but not as many as you might think. Moor Street was not just a suburban terminus. It had the GWR Northern Division main line running past into Snow Hill Tunnel. It had long distance trains pulled by tender engines such as Castles and Halls. It also had visits from auto trains on a Honeybourne/Worcester service and LM(R) trains also visited both the terminus and passed by on the through lines. Much of the evidence for these comes from warwickshirerailways.com. Remember that during the WCML and New Street electrification program there were all sorts of diversions.
Plus there were the traversers! Space saving releases for tank engines but rated to 170 tons so large tender engines could be released to turn at "Tyseley" (where the turntable would be used). I have done a quick sketch using Anyrail software and the railway room could handle a double oval with one long storage loop running along the walls with a spur off to Moor Street running diagonally across the room. There is a track plan from 1914 when about half the station was in operation and I would freeze this plan as still being active in the 1950s.
Another advantage is the availability of ready to plonk buildings, etc. I would not necessarily reproduce the restored station building, fine as it is, it might be done in half relief, while I could put Penmaenpool's engine shed to good use as a staging point for busy suburban tank engines! The back scenes would be cityscapes from the period, well illustrated on-line.
Goods trains? Only on the main line but as anyone who spotted at Snow Hill will attest, the centre two tracks were always being used for fast and local transfer freights, pulled by anything from a pannier to an 8F or Black 5. I would not model the extensive GWR goods shed at Moor Street, simply not enough space.
So, more thought is needed but the existing framework would need only minor alterations and all the track could be re-used. What have I got to lose?
Paul
Pencarrow
Western Thunderer
Probably best you have a good think at this stage rather than when everything is ballasted, wired, sceniced and all the buildings finished. Doubts at that stage would be very disheartening (and expensive). Moor street sounds an interesting, and very different, idea from your current plan.
The only thing I would say, would be you can always think of a better more interesting layout to build and this paralysed me making a commitment to one plan for ages. There's always the nagging doubt that a better plan may come along.
At the end of the day, if you like big locos and a more intensive service then something different is going to suit you better.
The only thing I would say, would be you can always think of a better more interesting layout to build and this paralysed me making a commitment to one plan for ages. There's always the nagging doubt that a better plan may come along.
At the end of the day, if you like big locos and a more intensive service then something different is going to suit you better.
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Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Thanks, Chris. I have been measuring up and an interesting layout will fit in the space. You are absolutely right, I would not want to go any further and then make a decision to tear up a lot of scenic work. I also have a half finished engine shed from Legge Lane which could provide more urban north light scenery, though probably not as an engine shed.
I think I am going to do it: start with the wall-hugging ovals, then strike out with the station itself. Just one point leads into the station on the 1914 map so I might have three lines running in parallel before the Moor Street "relief" joins at the existing scissor crossing which having got wired is something don't want to mess with!
I think I am going to do it: start with the wall-hugging ovals, then strike out with the station itself. Just one point leads into the station on the 1914 map so I might have three lines running in parallel before the Moor Street "relief" joins at the existing scissor crossing which having got wired is something don't want to mess with!
LarryG
Western Thunderer
You might be thinking of the LNWR designs, which for some reason rarely got the proper BR liveries. At nationalization in 1948, coaches built at the beginning of the LMS were a mere 24 years old and so they got blood & custard if gangwayed stock and all over blood if non-corridor. Your Period I coach almost certainly got blood & custard. Many of lasted into the early 1960's.
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Larry, I think you are correct, I got it wrong. So I will plan to add the custard when I get over my latest decision! Back to the woodworking. . .
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Focalplane
Western Thunderer
I think Penmaenpool may as well be closed. Half of it just disappeared. So I will start a new thread called Moor Street. As I will be mixing in a few LM(R) trains I will put it in the same “Layout Progress” section of WT. Unless someone else suggests otherwise.
Here’s the reason why:
Here’s the reason why:
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Hi Simon
Yes. it does, but the joy of the L Girder system is the change shouldn't take too long so look forward!
Anyway, I am a Brummie!
Paul
Yes. it does, but the joy of the L Girder system is the change shouldn't take too long so look forward!
Anyway, I am a Brummie!
Paul