warren haywood
Western Thunderer
If it’s too much hassle leave it as it is, we will discuss it over a couple of beers Friday night
7mm Mickoo's Commercial Workbench
- Thread starter mickoo
- Start date
mickoo
Western Thunderer
A couple 
, pish, this problem is at least three or four beers in the solving, maybe even a curry meal too 
Anyway onward.
Tender rear and sides. The rear is fitted but the sides just held in place by gravity and sticktion. There's still more details to add to the tender rear and well deck and those will go on in due course.
The sides were a fear point, you do at least get two spare sides to practice on, neither went well, the cant rail bend is critical to get uniform and parallel with the footplate, especially once painted, any wrinkle or out of alignment shows up like a big sore.
Fortunately both the required sides formed perfectly, one is good going for me, but two....it can't last. To check the bend I've spent some time polishing the sides, this is the easiest way to see if there's anything untoward before the beading goes on or they are fitted. Both side still need some more final polishing and inspection before I'll be happy to move on.
More anon.
, pish, this problem is at least three or four beers in the solving, maybe even a curry meal too Anyway onward.
Tender rear and sides. The rear is fitted but the sides just held in place by gravity and sticktion. There's still more details to add to the tender rear and well deck and those will go on in due course.
The sides were a fear point, you do at least get two spare sides to practice on, neither went well, the cant rail bend is critical to get uniform and parallel with the footplate, especially once painted, any wrinkle or out of alignment shows up like a big sore.
Fortunately both the required sides formed perfectly, one is good going for me, but two....it can't last. To check the bend I've spent some time polishing the sides, this is the easiest way to see if there's anything untoward before the beading goes on or they are fitted. Both side still need some more final polishing and inspection before I'll be happy to move on.
More anon.
A couple
Anyway onward.
Tender rear and sides. The rear is fitted but the sides just held in place by gravity and sticktion. There's still more details to add to the tender rear and well deck and those will go on in due course.
The sides were a fear point, you do at least get two spare sides to practice on, neither went well, the cant rail bend is critical to get uniform and parallel with the footplate, especially once painted, any wrinkle or out of alignment shows up like a big sore.
Fortunately both the required sides formed perfectly, one is good going for me, but two....it can't last. To check the bend I've spent some time polishing the sides, this is the easiest way to see if there's anything untoward before the beading goes on or they are fitted. Both side still need some more final polishing and inspection before I'll be happy to move on.
View attachment 99569
View attachment 99570
View attachment 99571
More anon.
Hi Mickoo,
Those sides are neater than the real things.
Mark
warren haywood
Western Thunderer
One area to take care of Mick is the front coal plate fitting. I’ve painted a few of these and they have all had a little crease where the half etch groove is in the tender sides.
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
I certainly used one of the sides to experiment and then went ahead, the etches on the back being most useful. I used the recommended diameter brass bar to bend both curves (front and top) and then messed up the first side with the beading being soldered on the wrong way. That will be rectified later this week when I return home.
My photos of 46235 certainly show a lot of distortion that you have missed!
Paul
My photos of 46235 certainly show a lot of distortion that you have missed!
Paul
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Okay, things have moved on, a few delays here and there, family, shows, other bits and bobs means I've lost about a week so far. It's nearly ready for final assembly, basically attaching the front and RH side and adding the rear ladder, steps and some sundry details. I'm hoping to start the engine chassis this weekend.
Main parts all laid out.
Front bulkhead sub assembly.
Front just placed into position to check fit.
MD
Main parts all laid out.
Front bulkhead sub assembly.
Front just placed into position to check fit.
MD
Kylestrome
Active Member
I take it you do still use solder? 
David
David
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Sadly, yes I do. If I didn't have to I wouldn't, but to be fair there is an edge of satisfaction knowing it's all soldered.
Mind I don't seem to have any luck with any adhesives, bits just drop off at random no matter which adhesive I use, even expensive ones, or the amount of preparation carried out.
All of which basically means I have to solder and get used to it.
Nickel silver is so much easier as a base medium, it takes solder so much better and long runs flow much easier, plus once you clean it it's much the same colour as the base material.
Brass is much harder, it's very easy for a clean brass surface to get too hot and form a sort of barrier, especially from flux. The only way round that is to clean it all up and try again.
I keep getting told it doesn't need to be this clean, and they're right as once painted it's all covered up. But I enjoy it and I've tried some new techniques on this one which has cut the cleaning and keeping clean time down to hours and not days like it used to.
I don't keep it clean because I have to, I do it because I want to.
MD
Mind I don't seem to have any luck with any adhesives, bits just drop off at random no matter which adhesive I use, even expensive ones, or the amount of preparation carried out.
All of which basically means I have to solder and get used to it.
Nickel silver is so much easier as a base medium, it takes solder so much better and long runs flow much easier, plus once you clean it it's much the same colour as the base material.
Brass is much harder, it's very easy for a clean brass surface to get too hot and form a sort of barrier, especially from flux. The only way round that is to clean it all up and try again.
I keep getting told it doesn't need to be this clean, and they're right as once painted it's all covered up. But I enjoy it and I've tried some new techniques on this one which has cut the cleaning and keeping clean time down to hours and not days like it used to.
I don't keep it clean because I have to, I do it because I want to.
MD
Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
How do you keep it clean, as I can't remember (old age).
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
If that's the case, Mick, it sounds as though it's nothing more complex a problem than running your iron too hot. I think you've got a temperature-controlled iron so try and set it between 50 and 100 degC more than the melting point of the solder and use the iron's power, rather than latent heat to run the solder.
Just a thought.
It's all looking good though.
Steph
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Steph, agreed.
I do have a temp controlled iron and use 145 solder all the time but at 300 it just does not heat up the battleship thickness metal often seen in kits. Despite being 80W with the biggest heat bearing tip you can find. When your trying to solder 18 thou to 9 thou it takes a massive amount of heat to heat the big heatsink, by which time the thinner half etch has overheated and tarnished. This is especially prevalent with the sides which are 18 thou thick and soldered to an 18 thou base with a 9 thou half etched lip on the outside.
By the time you've got any heat on the inside base and wall the outside half etch base has some sort of barrier on it and solder just will not flow.
The trick seems to be to get a good fillet on a high temp inside, clean off the outside and then run a lower temp cosmetic bead along the outside to give a nice cosmetic joint.
Nickel silver doesn't......correction......suffers significantly less than brass in this respect.
There are of course many other ways and reasons why solder won't flow, all way above my schooling and frankly skill base lol.
I do have a temp controlled iron and use 145 solder all the time but at 300 it just does not heat up the battleship thickness metal often seen in kits. Despite being 80W with the biggest heat bearing tip you can find. When your trying to solder 18 thou to 9 thou it takes a massive amount of heat to heat the big heatsink, by which time the thinner half etch has overheated and tarnished. This is especially prevalent with the sides which are 18 thou thick and soldered to an 18 thou base with a 9 thou half etched lip on the outside.
By the time you've got any heat on the inside base and wall the outside half etch base has some sort of barrier on it and solder just will not flow.
The trick seems to be to get a good fillet on a high temp inside, clean off the outside and then run a lower temp cosmetic bead along the outside to give a nice cosmetic joint.
Nickel silver doesn't......correction......suffers significantly less than brass in this respect.
There are of course many other ways and reasons why solder won't flow, all way above my schooling and frankly skill base lol.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Don't let it get dirty in the first place
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
What size soldering iron bit are you using?
Steph
Steph
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Big, as big as you can get on the ERSA to hold the heat. I've tried smaller ones and they just die as soon as it touches the metal. I can't change them now anyway as the big tip seems to have heat hardened onto the iron, I tried the other day and it made some alarming creaking noise from inside when I tried to twist the tip off. If I need to change the tip then it'll be a new iron, I may well do that at some point.
To be fair, due to the material thickness, about 80% of the tender was constructed with a Proxxon blow torch which makes accurate heat control much harder. That's a whole new skill set I've yet to master and struggling with...badly in some cases.
In that respect I tend top heat the middle of the tender floor and chase the heat out to the edge with the side and as soon as the solder runs take the heat away. There's enough latent heat in the floor to run under the side and warm the half etch lip and avoid distortion or over heating and..... for want of a better....and probably totally inaccurate phrase...glazing over.
MD
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Focalplane
Western Thunderer
I have had problems recently with my ERSA i-con 1 soldering station. The creaking sound you have experienced has worsened and now the station has ceased to work altogether, giving error signals that are not explained on the CD manual. My back up is two fold, first the Proxxon blow torch which I really like for the thick sheets of brass, etc., the second an ERSA i-con pico which has a much lower heat rating but at least does get hot. I bought the smaller ERSA by mistake but it is doing sterling work at the moment.
I think I will have to buy a new part for the larger work station, probably the entire (expensive) soldering iron that plugs into the work station. Needless to say, this is not covered by the warranty which has probably expired anyway. Emails have been sent to ERSA.
I understand that the Solderpro 120 butane iron is very popular but for some reason it is not available on line in France and not shipped from the UK to France by amazon.co.uk.
Paul
I think I will have to buy a new part for the larger work station, probably the entire (expensive) soldering iron that plugs into the work station. Needless to say, this is not covered by the warranty which has probably expired anyway. Emails have been sent to ERSA.
I understand that the Solderpro 120 butane iron is very popular but for some reason it is not available on line in France and not shipped from the UK to France by amazon.co.uk.
Paul
adrian
Flying Squad
Agreed it is not a complex problem - although I beg to differ in the analysis. The simple answer is that brass is the wrong material for the job, it's thermal dissipation is far greater than nickel-silver. I find it quite easy to hold components together with bare fingers when soldering with nickel silver because the heat stays local to where the soldering iron is, whereas with brass even 6" to 8" from the joint it becomes too hot to hold even with asbestos fingers. To be honest I've found that a lower temperature iron makes the problem of soldering brass even worse. As far as I'm concerned you cannot run your iron too hot, after all there are quite a few modellers who use miniature blowtorches with excellent results. It's all about getting the heat into the joint as quick as possible and unfortunately brass will just soak up heat like a sponge. A lower temperature iron just prolongs the time required to get the joint up to temperature.
In addition it oxidises too quickly, the oxides it does form are not conducive to the flow of the solder, it's a greasy metal that is a real PITA to paint, it work hardens too quickly. To me it beggars belief if given a choice you would chose brass over nickel-silver, irrespective of soldering technique or temperature of iron.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Yup, I find it's a fine line between getting enough heat in and over cooking it and glazing/oxidizing the surface.
Most brass work I do at 300-400° (and yes, this is probably exactly why I have problems occasionally) but I am finding the blow torch much better even if it it's not as controllable or accurate. What I really want is one of those uber small micro flames with a needle like jet, pretty much a pencil point type thing, only downside is the cost and finding one.
Most brass work I do at 300-400° (and yes, this is probably exactly why I have problems occasionally) but I am finding the blow torch much better even if it it's not as controllable or accurate. What I really want is one of those uber small micro flames with a needle like jet, pretty much a pencil point type thing, only downside is the cost and finding one.