G3 in Australia

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
I'd like to ask some advice, please.
I'm just in the process of building a new house in Glenbrook, NSW, where I will have a 50m x 20m block of land, big enough for a garden railway, and (more importantly) with permission from SWMBO to build a railway. Realistically it will be an end-to-end, and I'm torn between S7, where I have some experience (a little, but none outdoors), Gauge 3, or a compromise with 3/8" Gauge 1.
I'm going to keep my S7, so going to G1 is only a little step. If I go to G3 I could ultimately aim for coal-fired live steam, which I would really, really like to do. But having never built a boiler or used a lathe, I need to walk before I run.
G3 seems at present to be my favourite, but there are difficulties. There don't seem to be many, indeed any, other people in Aus. interested in G3; so if I import a locomotive with a boiler, how would I make sure it is safe; also if I start in G3, the scene is difficult to work out - what is the equivalent of S7 (I'm an obsessive person, and scale-to-gauge has to be right); can I buy a loco. kit to start with (to make a radio-controlled battery powered L&Y "pug" or a Peckett?); is Mike Williams the same as Mike Williams (Agenoria v. Williams Models)?
Am I crazy, to go with G3 in Australia? Wouldn't G1 be easier? Though I think if I don't go for G3, I'll have to give up the smell of coal and steam, and just go for S7 out of doors.
What do the experts think?

David
 

Simon

Flying Squad
David, I think what is "easier" is, in this context, completely irrelevant.

What you need to do is whatever it is that you most want to do.

All of the options you mention are possible in the Garden, coal fired steam probably isn't in S7, but certainly is in G1 or G3.

If I were you, I'd think about what it is that I really want to get out of the whole business, make a decision, then relentlessly pursue it and post pictures and reports of your progress here.

I predict that any other approach will lead to endless discussion, prevarication and little action of any railway nature in your garden:p

Good luck with it!
 

Peter

Western Thunderer
Hi David,

Do you know about the following group near to where you live?

From: Model Engineering - The Australian Model Engineering Magazine

· Blue Mountains Railway Society Co-Op.

· BLAXLAND, Corner of Graham and Haymet Streets (Wascoe Siding)

· 1st Sunday - except January.

· PO Box 20, Glenbrook, NSW 2773

· AMBSC - ID – NE

Although they are mainly a 5in gauge group, I am sure that they will help you.

Best regards,

Peter
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I am not an expert but the list posted by Peter has at least 4 clubs around Sydney with 2 1/2 inch gauge tracks. Isn't this the same as G3? They probably use large flanges but maybe not. It would be worth going to visit them to see if you like the size. There are far more places to run 3 1/2 inch, 5 inch and 7 1/4 inch gauge locos around Australia, maybe bigger would be better. S7 certainly works outdoors but I haven't seen any live steam yet.
 

Peter

Western Thunderer
Hi Overseer,

Yes. G3 is the same as 2 1/2 inch gauge.

Hi David,

If you are considering modelling in S7, I would recommend the following articles of the live steam models of Clarry Edwards. I am unsure if any of his models burnt coal.

Model Railways December 1991 – MGN 0-6-0 and 4-4-0

Your Model Railway January 1986 - LNWR Dreadnought Compound. Interestingly he talks about upgrading his models from 7mm to 1:45 standards and possibly onto Scale 7 if it had been around.

Your Model Railway April 1987 - LNER A3 Pacific; yes with three cylinders.

British Railway Modelling May 1993 - LNWR Prince of Wales

British Railway Modelling June 1996 - SR West Country Pacific; yes, with three cylinders

British Railway Modelling July 1999 - SR King Arthur

Best regards,

Peter
 
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adrian

Flying Squad
If you are considering modelling in S7, I would recommend the following articles of the live steam models of Clarry Edwards. I am unsure if any of his models burnt coal.
Clarry's engines were all meths fired, he had nice burner arrangement which meant that he could get a loco up to steam in less than 5 minutes, and his J70(?) tram loco had a firebox 3/4" square.

My Dad did have a couple of coal fired O-gauge locos but they were an Atlantic, a Garrett and a Mikado arrangement to get the largest possible firebox area. Whilst they did run fine they were quite temperamental. It was just too small for coal fired locos, 7mm will be meths or gas fired.

Gauge 1 or 1/32 would be a good size if you want to build everything yourself, also I think there'd be a bit more on the second hand market if you want to get something to get yourself started. If you get a good lathe then this would be suitable for G1 or G3. I think a big consideration will be if you want to make the boilers yourself. I think there is a big difference between G1 boilers and G3 boilers, in G1 you could easily manage with a decent sized blow torch and a small hearth in the workshop. Going to G3 the boilers will be big lumps of copper and you'd need a really good setup to build boilers in G3. Of course if you are leaning to G3 it's not a show stopper because the other alternative is to get someone to build the boiler for you.
 

jamiepage

Western Thunderer
David,
Far from being an expert, I perfectly personify the prevarication so astutely described by Simon above, having tinkered in many scale/ gauges but with little to show for any of it.

However, I would suggest you do try G3, with a wagon kit perhaps, or a bit of scratchbuilding. For what it's worth, I used to model in S7, but have thoroughly enjoyed my G3 projects, such as they are. I enjoy spending time on a single item of stock, from research to weathering, and G3 is good for that.
Mike Williams (yes, of Williams Models, not the other one) produces kits of course, but also offers a great number of good quality components such as buffer stocks, axleboxes etc. Slaters produce kits plus wheelsets, couplings etc. These are all not only of good quality, but they all share a common scale, unlike G1 which has a 10mm/ 9.5mm issue - which I found a little frustrating on occasion.

The published G3 wheel standards do show their parentage from Model Engineering 2 1/2 in. gauge, so are proven but not high fidelity.
There is however, a set of S7 equivalent standards published under the Spur II banner which look much better.
Indeed, I didn't like the G3S standards, so am now fiddling with Spur II and find the same pleasures I enjoyed with S7, but that's a personal thing. (I will try to supply a link for you to their fact sheets).

Mind you, inside S7 and outside G3/ Spur II would be a splendid mix! Maybe S7 could satisfy the finescale itch, leaving G3 standards acceptable for the garden.

Youtube Spur II will find you a few continental videos which may be interesting.

There is a Gauge Three Society, but I'll leave it to others to decide whether they feel it may be worth joining. I'm not sure the G3S could help you with your boiler issue, nor did they seem interested in closer scale wheel/ track standards when I was a member- though they may be different nowadays.

Best of luck,
Yours
Jamie
 

jamiepage

Western Thunderer
One point I would add to Adrian's comments ref. boilers is that the chosen prototype, and hence size of boiler, affects the situation markedly.

My preferred Edwardian prototypes are fairly small, and in G3 have very similar dimensions to a more modern prototype in G1. The outcome is that my G3 locos can have (what are effectively) G1 boilers fitted. Paul Forsyth sells a number of designs for G1 locos, and the boiler design from, say, his Director fits perfectly in a G3 4-4-4T loco I'm building. (Bar shifting the dome).

They also sit within the insurance company's definition of 'Small Boilers' so can be maintained and insured as such.
If you have the boiler supplied by a commercial builder, it will come with an initial boiler test certificate. After which, the large Scenic Model Railway Associations in UK (G1MRA, 16mm Assoc, but not G3S) share a common 'Small Boiler' inspection policy for insurance purposes for 'Small Boilers' owned by members.
It might be worth investigating whether you have a local G1MRA or 16mm Association group nearby who might oversight your boiler. BUT, that would only apply for 'Small Boilers' I suspect- larger ones would need guidance from a Model Engineering club.
 

Spitfire2865

Western Thunderer
If G3 interests you, I would highly recommend a Williams models wagon kit. One of his fully cast wagons is a great introduction to the detail and feel of G3. I certainly became obsessed after completing one, and have now scratchbuild one and working on a second. (My idea of scratchbuilding in this scale is hardwood and bolts, so it takes a good while to design and commission all the needed parts and tighten up all the bolts.)
Also remember, if live steam falls through and you decide it wont work for you, G3 is also about the largest you can realistically go on battery or track power. I certainly have plans to go battery power when I get around to building a loco, though I have plenty of skills to learn before that!
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
I decided to move out into the garden about two years ago and my original intention was to go G3 having seen some of the modelling done by others on this forum. I got one of Mike Williams' wagon kits and some Cliff Barker track to get a feel for the scale. But when I came to start messing around with Templot to see what layout I could fit into the garden, I found that I was only going to manage what might be termed a small, almost micro layout in smaller scales - i.e. a small branch line terminus with one or two coach trains. So I eventually dropped a scale to 1:32 which gave me what I wanted in train operations. So I would start doodling out your possible track plans first, and use something like Templot which gives you the actual length of a turnout in G3 and not a "back of fag packet" sketch which can be over optimistic about turnout dimensions. :)

Jim.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
If G3 interests ... My idea of scratchbuilding in this scale is hardwood and bolts, so it takes a good while to design and commission all the needed parts and tighten up all the bolts.
And very worthwhile too - your contributions over there are rather good and do deserve to be aired here. Well maybe not the war game figues.
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
Hi David,

I am Mike Williams of Williams Models. Nothing to do with Agenoria. I modelled 7mm from joining the Gauge 0 Guild at the age of 13 but became somewhat inactive after getting married in my mid 30s. I then discovered Gauge 3 and have not modelled 7mm since.

Although we are a very small manufacturer. I think we have four customers in Australia, so you would not be entirely alone, though how active they all are, or how close to you I am not sure.

We all model the same scale, same gauge and mainly the same standards, irrespective of steam or battery, indoors or outdoors. If you move in S7 circles you will know of Ken Cottle who is quite happy with the existing Gauge 3 standards, although I admit they are not perfect.

The availability of kits and parts may well be similar in both G1 and G3, though ready to run live steam is far better served in Gauge 1 at present and I think the popularity of G3 is increasing. However, why not think of a few models you’d like to build/have and then compare how practical they would be in both scales?

And, if you would like a frank chat about Gauge 3 and the products available (not just from me), by all means drop me a line again.

Mike
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
David,

If it helps, we have customers in Kotara, Canberra and
Burradoo, which may not be far from you (relatively speaking!) and may give a view on Gauge 3.

Mike
 

unklian

Western Thunderer
I agree with all of the above, with especial emphasis on the need for space in Gauge 3 ( although it sounds as if you have plenty ) and the need to do a lot yourself. I have found that whilst rolling stock will use the sort of skills and materials found in 7mm and smaller scales, locos tend to need a bit more model engineering applied to them. This is especially true with live steam. I would also recommend that if you do lay out a G3 track, try and get a continuous oval/run/circle in somewhere if you are going to run any kind of live steam. Even with the best Radio control the little tinkers need to be let loose and run round and round every now and then . If you want to do fine scale G3 then the Spur II standards are the way to go, although be aware you might be on your own a bit as they are incompatible with the G3 Society standards. www.spur-ii.de is the main website and you will of course realise it is all German, which is where the main impetus for the standards has come from. Quite why the Germans call it Gauge 2 ( Spur II )and we call the same thing Gauge 3 has been lost in the mists of history.
Joining a local model engineering club would be a very good idea, as you will be able to tap into info on workshop machines, construction techniques, materials, castings, etc. no matter that you might be working in the smallest engineering scale ( 2 1/2" gauge ) as far as they are concerned ! Joining the Gauge 3 Society might be helpful in finding like minded souls in Aus. There are a few, and in New Zealand too, although you are all rather far apart in that part of the world I guess .
And do keep in touch on here, I am sure you have had a good read about our various exploits, and we do like answering questions about them .

Cheers Ian
 

Peter

Western Thunderer
Hi David,

Adding to what others have said but from an Australian perspective.

If you do not already have them, and are serious about building live steam models, I would recommend a copy of the following boiler codes:

The boiler codes for copper boilers (Part 1) and sub-miniature boilers (Part 3) produced by the Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee (AMBSC).

They are available from the Australian Association of Live Steamers at: AALS Online

Or from: Model Engineering - The Australian Model Engineering Magazine

Depending on the scale used and the size of the prototype, one or other of theses codes would be applicable. However I recommend both codes for sound advice.

Best regards,

Peter
 

DavidinAus

Western Thunderer
Gosh, thanks for all the replies.
Going right back to #2 above, I suspect that G1 would just be an unsatisfying compromise. I've done some building in S7, and what I really want from a garden railway is size, and eventually the ability to run live steam (preferably with coal). So G3 it should be, I think.
Peter, Blaxland is the next suburb to Glenbrook, and I have already spoken to them. It's only a short bike-ride from our present house, and also from where the new one will be. They are very much 5", though, and didn't even know there was a 2 1/2 inch gauge.
Overseer, I've also been to Luddenham site for a SSME open day: there were 5" models in steam, a G1 layout, 3 1/2 inch track with no activity, and no discernible 2 1/2 inch track or models. Perhaps I should try Ryde. I went to the AMRA exhibition to find the "Rails in the Garden" crowd, who were very welcoming, but G1 spirit-fired loco.s, or 32mm track narrow-gauge.
Simon and Jamie are right though. Once I have finished my S7 8F (see thread!) I should buy a wagon and start to get a feel for G3, I guess. I spoke to Mike a few months ago about one of his loco.s (an LNWR Cauliflower, which would suit me well in other respects), but I think I really need to walk before I run. Perhaps a few wagons, and a non-steam powered loco. to start with. It would be foolish to buy a steamer with no-where to run it, which is back to finding a local society with the track, I guess. Also, someone to teach this medic how to use a lathe and/or other machine tools!
Mike, I will drop you a line sometime soon. Kotara is in Newcastle (near Broadmeadow, home of the NSW Garratts) and Burradoo is in the Southern Highlands, both quite a long way, even by our standards. I was inspired to start this thread by the wagons in "Geoff's G3 Workbench", which seem to be developed by or for you.

David
 

geoff_nicholls

Western Thunderer
hi David,
I'm pleased my G3 Workbench thread has encouraged you to try gauge 3. I started ten years ago with a GRS Great Eastern steam tram and a couple of wagons, and have no regrets, despite being a 'kitchen table' modeller, having to fit a layout in a room 12' 6" by 10' 6".
If you've modelled in S7 you're no beginner. If you want a relatively quick and easy start, then I recommend the GRS 02 0-4-4T loco. Despite some critical reviews in this forum and another: G3 Forum - Index of GRS loco kits, they are not ludicrously expensive, I can't speak for the accuracy of the 02, but once built it runs nicely, and is designed for two rail power, so you don't even need to start thinking about RC immediately.
But scratch building would not be difficult, as my article on building a J65 on the above forum shows.
As for space, it sounds as though you have plenty, but my steam tram pushes four wheeled wagons round 4 foot radius reverse curves without buffer locking.
The range of skills in the G3 community is wider than most scales, stretching all the way from model engineers to 'scenics' with aspirations to inclusion in Model Railway Journal (that's me), with a healthy overlap. wherever on that spectrum your interests lie, you will be most welcome.
 

David Taylor

Western Thunderer
If you want to go live steam I think you should join up at Wascoe siding anyway, just to keep motivation up and to get the model engineering help you might need when building a live steam loco.

West Ryde have a small scale live steam day each year, so keep an eye out for that.

There seems to be a bit of G1 stuff going on at ILS in Wollongong.

If you're a S7 and 1/32 type person then keep in mind live steam usually means a really ugly cab and pretty course wheels. The wheel problem is only because the standards were set so long ago and no-one wants to build a live steamer they can only run on their own track. The cab is just due to the difficulty of making small but still working controls. I've only seen one guy who managed to make a G1 live steam cab that looked anything like what a small scale modeller would accept. It is one the things that turns me off G1 live steam, the other being that I'd prefer to build 1/32 but I bet most people we'd meet go 10mm.

I also wonder about coal firing in G1 and G3. I know it is possible but I wonder how much fun it is. My little 5" gauge loco requires constant attention so I shudder to think what a tiny firebox burning tiny grains of char would be like.

It is all possible of course, and if you don't care about being able to run on other people's track (like there are tons of 2 1/2" gauge tracks around NSW!) I'm sure you could turn out some excellent models in any of the scales, if you accept the limitations of how big the controls have to be.
 
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