G3 - Another Neilson

Discussion in 'G3' started by Arty, 6 December 2018.

  1. Arty

    Arty Western Thunderer

    Having produced some early items of rolling stock, that wouldn't look sensible behind a Ruston48DS, the hunt was on for something more likely.
    An 0-4-0 Manning Wardle is a favourite and may well appear in due course, but a more immediate answer would be one of Spitfires Neilson tanks.
    With some help and advice from Trevor, I've been collecting some parts. A few Shapeway 3d bits - mainly the awkward bits, chimney, cylinders, smokebox, firebox and some brass crossheads.
    The best bit is the little velvet bag that protects the crossheads.
    Also a large pile of laser cut steel parts turned up as well.


    So I just couldn't wait to clean up some parts to see how it all goes together - very nicely in fact.


    Lots more preparation - most of the platework, boiler, tank will be fabricated in n/s.

    P A D, unklian, Spitfire2865 and 17 others like this.
  2. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Oo, that's all very tempting. I built one of these as a 5" gauge steamer following the series in Engineering in Miniature and have always liked the look of her. Problem is, I have too many projects on the go at the moment so, will have to pass this one by.

    Arty likes this.
  3. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Hey Richard, great to see you documenting, but be warned, youve mixed up the chassis frames.
    The right side frame has an extra hole towards the rear guard iron for the reverser pivot. Would be an awkward thing to drill out once assembled. I almost made the same mistake.
    Plus when the front is soldered together you can cut that thin crosspiece in the footplate between the wheels. Its main purpose is to prevent spreading before assembly.

    I look forward to seeing your take on it with your scratched superstructure.

    Enjoy the fitting of the valences. I resorted to a hammer and some "gentle" persuasion to get all those tabs lined up.
    Rob Pulham likes this.
  4. Arty

    Arty Western Thunderer

    Hi Trevor, the frames are both the same - no extra hole. It doesn’t matter really because this will be the later GE build, so there are a few differences, brake standard position and I suspect the reverser may be different.
    I have to add a few holes for brake hangers etc, but I’ve only test fitted things so far, not quite ready for final assy.

    Rob Pulham and geoff_nicholls like this.
  5. Arty

    Arty Western Thunderer

    Started doing some of the fiddly bits, buffers and buffer beam/plank ?
    Although the majority of these engines carried dumb buffers, N0 7230/8081 had parallel sided stocked GE buffers.
    The buffer beams were laminated with a wooden centre between steel faces.
    I managed to locate some 4mm oak sheet and drilled through the holes provided in the laser cut beams to accept 14ba hex bolts.

    I also wanted to contain the buffer springing within the beam, so some GE buffers were purchasd from Walsall Model Industries and "improved" with 12ba fixing bolts and the rear counterbored to conceal the rear of the buffer tail and nut.


    After making the spacing pads from Delrin, they fitted quite nicely on the buffer beam with the overhang on the top face.

    Just the rear one to do next, and Ive only lost one 14ba nut so far.
    P A D, Rob Pulham, AJC and 14 others like this.
  6. geoff_nicholls

    geoff_nicholls Western Thunderer

    very GER, very impressive.
    Arty likes this.
  7. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Those 14ba nuts do have the tendancy to ping off at the slightest slip.
    The buffers look very nice.
    Arty likes this.
  8. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Arty likes this.
  9. Arty

    Arty Western Thunderer

    Just as a footnote, I cut the 2 x 8mm holes in the 1mm steel plates with a punch. Luckily I had the right size, and it provided a round hole in the correct place - unlike a drill.

    And the complete sandwich.

    P A D, unklian, Jon Nazareth and 7 others like this.
  10. Arty

    Arty Western Thunderer

    With bolts.
    P A D, Rob Pulham, chrisb and 6 others like this.
  11. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Rich, I know your distaste for all the hardware, however I must ask, why are all the bolts with the head on the outside? From the photos Ive seen, both Neilson and GER built, the nuts were on the outside with a bit of thread sticking out. Unless of course 7230 was built differently.
  12. Arty

    Arty Western Thunderer

    I love all sorts of hardware - nuts, bolts, rivets & washers Trevor.
    The bolts are just pushed through to make sure all the holes line up, I’ve not put any nuts on - it’s all got to come apart again.
    I must say I’ve not really thought which way round they would be fitted, I guess it would be the only way to assemble the real laminate with the bolts fitted from the rear.
    The prints I have are very indistinct regarding the nut/bolt head, but I’m sure you’re right.
    Did they have washers under the nuts ?
  13. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    I dont believe washers were fitted to the headstocks. As its a steel plate, little risk of digging in.
    Now that I look at the GER photos from the article, it looks like rivets. Not sure why rivets would be chosen considering the wood may rot and need replacing.
    I couldve sworn I had seen photos with nuts somewhere. Cant find it now.
  14. Arty

    Arty Western Thunderer

    I've always used washers under nuts, but in completely different applications. What railway engine manufacturers used in this application at the end of the 19th century - who knows. Maybe to lock the nuts in place they may have peened over the end of the threads, which may give the appearance of rivets.
    I can't find a clear enough view to confirm bolthead or nut on 7320.
    But I did find images of Neilson saddletank/Manning Wardle/Avonsidebuffer beam detail which shows hex bolt heads ?

    Rob Pulham and Ian_T like this.
  15. Peter Insole

    Peter Insole Western Thunderer

    I have found a similar puzzle on my big little Horwich engine!

    There are several perfectly normal looking rivets on the running plates and headstocks that when viewed from behind or underneath (on the prototype, not my model!) reveal that they are nothing of the sort. They are threaded and nutted.

    Coach bolts - of course!

    I can only assume that the holes in the steel plate work had keyways cut out in order to lock the round headed ends in place?

    After looking at some of my reference pics I have found one of a flitch plated timber headstock on a GER locomotive, clearly showing plain round heads outermost. Another pic of similar vintage shows nuts to the rear face.

    The bolts could only be freely driven home by swinging a hammer from the outside anyway?

    Also, rivets need to be fairly short and stumpy as well as red hot in order to be properly hammered over, so it would never have been a very good idea to try inserting one through any sort of timber - unless a heap of charcoal was desired that is...?!

    I hope this helps?

  16. Arty

    Arty Western Thunderer

    Thank you Peter for your thoughts.
    Doing a bit more digging, here's a Neilson built Spanish broad gauge loco - coach bolts I think.


    And a better quality version of 7230 - coach bolt most likely ?

    spikey faz and Spitfire2865 like this.
  17. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Hmm...now I have to try my hand at making 14ba coach bolts.
    Rob Pulham and Ian_T like this.
  18. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    Brass dressmakers pins as a starting point?

  19. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    You can buy 14BA bolts/screws with a domed head from Items Mail Order. I have a some in stock but they are too big for general use where I mainly use 16BA nuts and a brass rivet.

  20. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Do you have any contact details. Googling them brings up nothing but an address. Not even a phone number, not that that would help me at all anyway. Email would be my only means of contact.