Scattergun Distractions - Gadzooks, I appear to have gone normal

[Neil]

Distractions

Here are some of the things that slow down the growth of Morfa.





Since childhood I've held a strong interest in things narrow gauge (and I'm not talking Stephenson vs Brunel here) expressed through the medium of 009. Some of my early toys survive but recently I've added new build for the yet to be built Ganllwyd Tramway, a distraction looming on the horizon.



Then there's the big toys; most Tuesdays you will find me drinking tea at Maespoeth, the Corris Railway's engineering hub.



The Isle of Avalon Tramway is as much a work of fiction as its title suggests. Though there's little connection with the real word, in my head it has life that more serious studies have failed to deliver. There's a lot of the narrow gauge that seeps through into it, the tram is a dimensionally juggled Wolverton and Stoney Stratford narrow gauge example. Hugely not finescale despite the EM standards.



I'm also engaged in a long term campaign to see what I can make of this orange horror. Here's how far I've got so far.


I had hoped there would be a little more to show of this but I put it somewhere safe after the last session when le mojo et grande and I can't remember where I stashed the bugger.

UPDATE: Just found the blighter in a margarine tub.[/attach]

 

[28ten]

Distractions

Im glad Im not the only one to get distracted! is the middle shot Corris?

 

[Neil]

Distractions

Im glad Im not the only one to get distracted! is the middle shot Corris?

Yes, it's an afternoon service leaving Maespoeth for Corris.

 

[28ten]

Distractions

[quote=""28ten"":111yjmyn]Im glad Im not the only one to get distracted! is the middle shot Corris?

Yes, it's an afternoon service leaving Maespoeth for Corris.[/quote:111yjmyn]
Thought it was. I really must get along to Corris as its one of my favourite NG lines.

 

[Captain Kernow]

Distractions

[quote=""28ten"":1a9p83dm]Im glad Im not the only one to get distracted! is the middle shot Corris?

Yes, it's an afternoon service leaving Maespoeth for Corris.[/quote:1a9p83dm]
Just shows how very convincing a reproduction of the old line these guys are achieving. I can't wait for their Big Push down to that station that sounds like 'Let's Scare the Golly**g'.... :laugh:

 

[Neil]

Distractions

This week I 'ave mostly bin drawing .... and it struck me that plain track is a much underrated proposition for a layout. Just about all the most spectacular and gorgeous stretches of line don't centre round stations, sidings or engine sheds.

Here are a few examples:

Cambrian Coast

Woodhead

Rannoch Moor

And here's the concept in model form

 

[28ten]

Distractions

I like the first one
In my own way I have come to the same sort of conclusion, its a bold move, especially in 4mm, but if executed properly the results could be spectacular.

 

[Jordan]

Distractions

Just about all the most spectacular and gorgeous stretches of line don't centre round stations, sidings or engine sheds.

Quite agree with the gist of this, but for a "plain track" layout to succeed I think the scenery has got to be absolutely top-class, to hold attention in between trains.
It could be said to be operationally a bit dull, or unrealistic if a procession of trains rattle past in quick succession in either direction!!
On the other hand there are layouts that take this concept and add "a bit more" - usually in the way of loops to add operational interest; Stoke Summit and Blea Moor (now retired?) spring immediately to mind...

 

[28ten]

Distractions

[quote=""Neil"":17p6sf7f] Just about all the most spectacular and gorgeous stretches of line don't centre round stations, sidings or engine sheds.

Quite agree with the gist of this, but for a "plain track" layout to succeed I think the scenery has got to be absolutely top-class, to hold attention in between trains.
It could be said to be operationally a bit dull, or unrealistic if a procession of trains rattle past in quick succession in either direction!!
On the other hand there are layouts that take this concept and add "a bit more" - usually in the way of loops to add operational interest; Stoke Summit and Blea Moor (now retired?) spring immediately to mind... [/quote:17p6sf7f]
Playing devils advocate - what could be more boring to watch than tickling a few wagons around a yard? ! I do wonder sometimes if 'operation' is more fun to participate in , rather than watch?

 

[Dikitriki]

Distractions

Playing devils advocate - what could be more boring to watch than tickling a few wagons around a yard? ! I do wonder sometimes if 'operation' is more fun to participate in , rather than watch?

Hi Cynric

Yeah, but how are spectators going to see my inside valve gear, and operating reversing arms if the locos aren't pootling round a yard?

OK, I agree with you actually. I'm not that fond of shunting anyway, either operating or viewing, but if we are trying to recreate what was, it's part of the scene. At exhibitions, I think that something should be moving pretty much all the time. I know, horribly unrealistic, but it's what people want, and it's fun.

When I bought Heyside, it was a glorified test track - the yards were inoperable for 2 reasons - 1) they could not be reached physically - too far from the front, and unreachable over the buildings (and it wasn't operated with autocouplings) and 2) the rails were painted over with a rust colour - including the top surface! :? It was also boring to operate with only a rotation of the fiddle yard trains - 3 roads each line.

The revised Heyside requires 4 operators. Up main, down main, branch and yard (yard operated from the front, stock being 'Dinghammed'). There will always be something on the go, so if spectators aren't happy, they can go look at something else!

T - 5hrs to DCC........

Richard

 

[28ten]

Distractions

[quote=""28ten"":2fgm33nw]Playing devils advocate - what could be more boring to watch than tickling a few wagons around a yard? ! I do wonder sometimes if 'operation' is more fun to participate in , rather than watch?

Hi Cynric

Yeah, but how are spectators going to see my inside valve gear, and operating reversing arms if the locos aren't pootling round a yard?

OK, I agree with you actually. I'm not that fond of shunting anyway, either operating or viewing, but if we are trying to recreate what was, it's part of the scene. At exhibitions, I think that something should be moving pretty much all the time. I know, horribly unrealistic, but it's what people want, and it's fun.


Richard[/quote:2fgm33nw]
Are we trying to create what it was, or what we think it was?
what I have come to realise over the past couple of months is that I don't want what I thought I wanted :scratch:

 

[Simon Dunkley]

Distractions

Playing devils advocate - what could be more boring to watch than tickling a few wagons around a yard? ! I do wonder sometimes if 'operation' is more fun to participate in , rather than watch?

Just personal taste.

I like both: they each have their merits.

I have been re-reading the often misquoted articles by Don Rowlands on getting the proportions right. It is quite amusing to see how badly it is misquoted, but also that no one challenged it. As someone who works with statistics to earn his crust, we need to be a bit circumspect about interpreting things too literally, as the thing about averages is, they vary, on average by an average variation. *

Overall, he is quite right in that if you want to have a layout with 10 locos, you need something like 28 coaches, 8 NPCS and about 350 wagons, of which over 200 would be stood in storage sidings, with the rest either in transit, in a goods yard, or just arrived/about to depart from a marshalling yard. He is also quite right in that for every route mile of track the LMSR owned, there were 7/8 of a mile of siding space to match it! The implication here is that there was much mileage accumulated in the marshalling yards, so shunting is as typical of the mainline LMS scene as any other form of operation, and indeed of any major railway. (H.G. Wells refers to the constant background sound of shunting at Woking station in "War of the Worlds".)

As I said, overall, that is correct. It is also correct, overall, to say that I have 2.2 children, but whoever heard of 1/5 of a child?

Now, Bob Essery did a piece in MBT a few years back, from which I drew the observation that on the SMJR, for example, the average freight train was comprised of 16 wagons and travelled 16 miles, or something similar. Also that many wagons moved on average 11 times per year.

Put these two together and we come to the inescapable conclusion that a large proportion of the rolling stock was sat around doing absolutely nothing - it was there in case it was needed, as much a consequence of the railways "common carrier" status as anything else, and a contributory factor to the poor returns they were making.

What this means for a model railway is that one simply does not need that proportion of wagons on a layout unless it is modelling a large marshalling yard. It also means that one needs to be aware of the local conditions. For example, there are plenty of photographs of the Cambrian Coast line in the 70s showing short mixed freight trains of less than a dozen wagons, but quite a few of the occasional longer train. But photos of Penrhyndeudraeth show it frequently rather well stocked with gunpowder vans - for the obvious reason that all empties returned here, and vans would simply be used as required. If you model this lovely stretch of railway in that most interesting of periods, then if you model the line north of Penrhydeudraeth, you do not need to model GPVs (indeed, if you model west of Prthmadog, the daily freight only appears on alternate days in the mid-late 70s at least, and then only if traffic requires). If you model south of the Pont Briwet, you need to include some GPVs in your trains, and if you want to model Penrhyndeudraeth, you need lots and lots and lots of GPVs.

And to return to Cynric's comment, the typical Cambrian Coast railway scene is of the railway running along or near the coast - not shunting. However, the typical main line scene can reflect rather more activity - and it doesn't have to be urban, think of High Dyke as an outstanding example of the main line (without a station) and lots of shunting going on in the middle of the countryside.

Simon
* If you are familiar with the phrase "standard deviation" from a statiscal concept rather than fromthe viewpoint of sexual proclivities, it is the mean average difference to the mean average value.

 

[28ten]

Distractions

I would agree with what you say in relation to rolling stock being sat in sidings doing nothing. In honesty, I very rarely saw any shunting back in the seventies (in either Reading or Oxford) obviously it took place but I never saw it, which is maybe why I just like seeing trains go by.
I cant help but think shunting is absorbing for those who enjoy it and dull as dishwater to the rest of us - each to their own etc. I am probably a bit of a philistine, but I am moving towards the penny in a slot and what it go by type of operation, which is why the OP struck a certain chord with me.

 

[Simon Dunkley]

Distractions

I am probably a bit of a philistine

Why think that? No one has said that...

By the period you mentioned, the railways had a lot of stock which simply wasn't needed, and which sat around doing nothing other than rusting: I felt the same as you about our local station. There was also a big push towards block/bulk freight, so pickup goods, wagon load freight and remarshalling were not so much in rapid decline as freefall. I also remember changing trains whilst on a railrover ticket with a friend, and watching Vic Berry's men actually cutting up 16T mineral wagons for scrap where they stood in Nuneaton station yard - now a supermarket, as it has been for a long time. Eek. That was 26 years ago!

Ultimately, if seeing trains running is what floats your boat, then I would advise either 2mm scale in a large room, or moving out into the garden...

 

[Neil]

Distractions

I'm afraid that the Cambrian Coast has unleashed another of it's traps for the unwary. Even if you model the line to the north of Penrhyndeudreath you still need to build gunpowder vans.

Steam days.

Porthmadog.htmDiesel days.

More diesel days.

So what's going on? If you compare the WTT in the down direction to the up direction WTT you'll notice that there's longer allocated for the Harlech - Portmadoc sector in the up direction. The sidings are set out better for shunting if the train's heading south. I believe it was fairly standard practice for the pick up to head straight to either Pwllheli or Portmadoc and then shunt on the return journey. The sidings at Towyn and Machynlleth were also set out for shunting to be done in the up direction. Shunting against the grain seems to be one of those model-isms that's somehow crept into our perceived notion of how the real railway operated.

 

[Simon Dunkley]

Distractions

I wondered about that - happy to be hoist by my own petard, though.
Not as well versed on that section of the line as you, but what is the photographic evidence for this: it is possible that on the way down (towards Porthmadog/Pwllheli) they have simply dropped off the empties, for sorting on the way back up?

And in the case of adding to operation at the terminus, there would simply be a block of wagons which are simply run round at the terminal point, with no further shunting required, I suppose.

 

[Neil]

Distractions

I wondered about that - happy to be hoist by my own petard, though.
Not as well versed on that section of the line as you, but what is the photographic evidence for this: it is possible that on the way down (towards Porthmadog/Pwllheli) they have simply dropped off the empties, for sorting on the way back up?

I doubt it, the links to the photos show in order:

Train with a substantial number of GPVs heading south through Minffordd.
Rake of empty GPVs in the yard at Porthmadog waiting the call to traffic at Penrhyndeudraeth.
Train with at least four GPVs at the head travelling north into (perhaps beyond) Porthmadog.

A brief scan of the books on the Cambrian Coast that I've got upstairs show gunpowder vans north of Penrhyndeudraeth to be a common event. I even have a shot or two of them at Pwllheli. Given the frequency with which they crop up and that there is no sensible destination for them on the norther section to Pwllheli I can only conclude that working them empty to the furthest destination of the pick up and shunting them off on the way back past Penrhyndeudraeth was the standard practice.

And in the case of adding to operation at the terminus, there would simply be a block of wagons which are simply run round at the terminal point, with no further shunting required, I suppose.

Exactly.

 

[Jordan]

Distractions

[quote=""28ten"":67ipzipr]Playing devils advocate - what could be more boring to watch than tickling a few wagons around a yard? ! I do wonder sometimes if 'operation' is more fun to participate in , rather than watch?

Just personal taste.

I like both: they each have their merits.
[/quote:67ipzipr]
I agree with Simon; why should it be an "Either - Or" situation..? I happen to build shunty-planks myself because that's all I have room/money for, but I like watching the trains go by as much as anyone else - just not the waiting in between them :lol:
In fact what you've described, Cynric, ("tickling a few wagons around") IS boring, since that seems to be just shunting without purpose. All shunting was done for a reason in reality. What I liked about that layout Severn Magna at Telford was that it was perfectly clear what was going on as soon as you looked at it - the reason behind the shunting; the Industrial shunter and BR locos were exchanging trains. Well they were when I saw it, anyway...
Very often it seems to me that shunting of the yard on many layouts happens as an afterthought and without purpose (i.e. exchanging loadeds for empties etc)... if it happens at all....
On the other hand, it was nice to watch trains going through their paces with a bit of speed on the Test Track, and on that layout with the massive bridge - one of a very few layouts I've ever seen with super-elevation on the curves; even a slow coal train looked very impressive running through them.

 

[Neil]

Distractions

Oh dear my tangents diverge even further. Probably prompted by the BBC4 northern season, and particularly the cool sixties episode I've dusted off an old book on trams and have become thoroughly obsessed by the photos of Henry Priestley, in particular those of Liverpool. Check out this beauty.

 

[Neil]

Distractions

Back on track, well sort of as at least it's to do with something already on the go rather than opening up another new front here's a photo showing progress to date on the first of the Ganllwyd Tramway's coaches.