An Unusual Collection

[oldravendale]

Arun - thanks so much for putting me right on the eventual demise of No 1. I should have quoted my reference as Wikipedia! Furthermore I should have looked for further corroboration. The info for this photo is thus already much improved.

This one's a cracker! It was in a sorry state as a print, extremely dark, lacking in detail and with repeating fog marks across the image from the original negative, possibly caused by a light leak in a bellows camera. In lifting the image shadows and then raising contrast the white of the buildings has rather burned out but all other detail has survived rather well. Once again I've tried to improve without compromising any detail which could be part of the image rather than a defect. I'm aware that I've slightly overdone the image sharpening which is so that we can gain as much detail as possible.

The title of this is "4298 leaving Moorgate. 19 Apr 62. R337". I take it that 4298 is the leading vehicle of the train on the left - is this Q stock? - , with destination board "Putney". The destination board on the nearer T stock train is Moorgate and duty numbers 7 and 8 are easily distinguishable. Finally the Class 31 can be identified as D5672.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Certainly Moorgate.

So different now having being built over and with gloomy platforms and of course the 'widened lines' ex LM and LNE platforms were closed when the Crossrail construction was started.

Interesting to see the Q stock taking the 'north' circle. Without checking I can only assume this was a result of engineering works on the District line between Aldgate East and Gloucester Road or it was normal working.

 

[farnetti]

My memories of the Q stock were that they appeared enormously spacious inside. But it was along time ago and they were not as crowded.

Also the Q stock seems very dated but the 31 quite recent. They only about 20 years apart, the mind plays tricks.

Ken

 

[oldravendale]

Ken and Dave - thanks again. I've not been to Moorgate Station in 50 years or more. In more recent years I've always driven to the City. When passing through I always found it really interesting and I remember (I think - in view of recent revelations I have to be cautious with memories), N2 tanks and Quad Art sets, but I may be dreaming. Your more subjective memories, Ken, are more along my wavelength.

However, before we get in to a number of pictures of the Brill Branch here's another - but really, seriously, poor on this occasion. It's titled "West Ruislip 6 Aug 62. R451" and there's little I can add. It'd be wonderful if this stirred up the hornets nest of interest that some previous images have, but I'm particularly doubtful with this one. The best I can offer is that it's one of the Met electric locos of a number between 2 and 9 (the number is rather too broad for it to be "1" and on the same basis I'd probably rule out "7". My money is on "3" or "9") with a new silver stock tube train (1959 stock?) immediately behind and a standard stock tube train, or at least a standard stock trailer, in the further distance.



Brian

 

[Oz7mm]

Ken

The age difference between the Q stock and the Class 31 is rather more than 20 years. The Q stock introduced in 1938 at the same time as the P stock were indeed about 20 years younger but the clerestory District Railway cars in the Q series could have dated back to 1923 (I think the old G stock). However the K & L stock were introduced in 1934/5 (Arun will correct me if I am misleading you all - I haven't checked the books).

I recall reading somewhere there was a District service round the north side of the Circle line in the 1950s, possibly only at weekends, though if this was a weekend, would there have been Met line trains in the bay platforms? Given that Q stock was used on the East London line at that time, could it possibly have come through from there?

I agree with Ken though that the picture smacks of delightful anachronism.

John

 

[Engineer]

Quick note on post 264: Very high probability that it is Loco 3. After the end of its passenger service role, it was allocated to Ruislip Depot for shunting. The need arose because a lot of new stock deliveries passed through that depot for commissioning in the early 1960s. Once that need ceased, there was no longer a requirement for stock shunting by loco. Possibly loco 3 was the least fit of the remaining group of serviceable locos.

 

[Engineer]

Quick note on post 261: The Monday-Friday [MF] working timetable for the Metropolitan Main at the time of the photograph has Train 7 as 8-coach T Stock, stabled Moorgate platform 3 0927 to 5.02 pm and Train 8, 8-coach T Stock stabled 0941 1/2 to 5.23 pm. Both lead vehicles are former Metropolitan Railway MW Stock and look like they are from the 1929/30 batch [clue is roof profile over cab and equipment compartment]. Second vehicle in train 7 is 1931 Stock [clue is steel panels without beading]. From the spacing of compartments, it looks like a former First coach.
The Working Timetable for the Widened Lines at that time has a majority of loco-hauled services into Moorgate, both ER and LMR.

 

[Engineer]

Quick note related to post 231, Baker Street loco siding [and related canteen questions]. I'm still examining dating clues for this picture, meanwhile here's a very recent picture of the area in question:

 

[Engineer]

Quick note on post 258 and loco 1: Need more time to go into the timetables, but there are signs of scheduled weekday loco-hauled trips out of and into Watford at the date given for the pictures.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

West Ruislip - No 3 is shunting is one of the standard 3 plank ex-Met wagons. It may be a poor photo but it's one of the very few I've seen of the Met Bo-Bos in departmental service along with the other at Ealing Common.

The Q stock introduced in 1938 at the same time as the P stock were indeed about 20 years younger but the clerestory District Railway cars in the Q series could have dated back to 1923 (I think the old G stock). However the K & L stock were introduced in 1934/5 (Arun will correct me if I am misleading you all - I haven't checked the books)

Just to clarify for the uninitiated - as John (Oz7mm) points out Q stock is the 1938 O/P stock style trailer car (Q38) used to form the Q series trains with converted District Line G (1923), K (1927), L (1931), M (1935) and N (1935) stock. K, L, M and N stock are very similar in appearance. All confusing as J Graeme Bruce in his book Steam to Silver refers to these re-formed trains as Q stock.

O stock was built for the Hammersmith and City (H&C) services and P stock for the Metropolitan Line. As alluded to in earlier posts R stock (similar to O, P and Q38 stock) was built post war in 1949 for the District Line and used some Q38 cars recovered from the Q stock.

I would like to know the District Line Q stock train working through Moorgate though - which would require a Met/District Circle Line WTT.

 

[Arun]

Ken

"The age difference between the Q stock and the Class 31 is rather more than 20 years. The Q stock introduced in 1938 at the same time as the P stock were indeed about 20 years younger but the clerestory District Railway cars in the Q series could have dated back to 1923 (I think the old G stock). However the K & L stock were introduced in 1934/5 (Arun will correct me if I am misleading you all - I haven't checked the books)."

Regarding the leading Northbound Q stock car, it is a Q23 car - originally District "G" stock built by GRCW around 1922-3. These were the oldest of the vehicles that [once EPB and Air door fitted] became Q stock.

 

[mickoo]

The first and last images are the same engine, the middle one is not.

I wonder what the coiled rope on the front footplate was used for, parallel line shunting?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The rope is for parallel shunting in a similar way to pole shunting in the US.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I've seen the Brill branch photos in other publications. I'll check these when I get home.

 

[Arun]

Brian - 91324 is the original number of a 1938 stock [Non-driving Motor] car built to run as part of a nine car train on the Northern line. When the line reverted to using 7 car trains these additional cars were absorbed into the main fleet but some were further modified to be able to shunt their attached cars for short distances and became known as Uncoupling Non-Driving Motors [and were renumbered in the 30xxx series].

The ballast wagon at Ruislip may well be one of the ?two ex-Met 3plank wagons used as match wagons - i.e., fitted with a wedgelock coupling at [Tube car height] at one end and a standard screw link coupler at the other at "normal" surface gauge height. The preserved wagon at LT Museum [Acton], BW214 was once one of these wagons and is arguably the only reason for its longevity.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The attributions I have found for the three Brill Branch photos are:

Top - Waddesdon Road: Lens of Sutton/R K Blancowe archive. The train has come from Quainton Road.
Centre - Quainton Road: I've never seen this one before and given it's quality it could well be from the Lens of Sutton stable
Bottom - Westcott: Lens of Sutton/R K Blancowe archive. Again the train has come from Waddesdon Road.

The fact at least two originate from the Lens of Sutton stable would explain the quality.

With regard to Mikoo's comment the position of the smokebox door handle, piling of the rope on the front deck and the bare metal patch on the centre smokebox hinge would suggest they are different locos.

The reference I checked was A History of the Metropolitan Railway Volume Three from Aylesbury north to Verney Junction and Brill - Bill Simpson - Lamplight Publications 2005.


According to the Warwickshire Railways website The Lens of Sutton Association regarding photographic archives and for Lens of Sutton it goes on to say:

The Lens of Sutton Association was established in 2001 to help maintain the collection and keep the name of 'Lens of Sutton' alive. As part of this objective the Association is making available a number of photographs from this extensive collection.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Returning to Baker Street this 1938 Topical Press photo is in the LT collection and shows the rear of Chiltern Court and with what appears building work for the canteen and catering training centre.

Photographs

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks so much, Dave. I think we ought to take these images down as the origin has been established and the details are well known. I'll not be publishing any more from this set.

Message to mods - please take down post #272.

With my thanks to everyone involved.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

In other matters.... thanks Arun for the details on the tube train image and the Ruislip photo. I'll add the details to the info.

Dave - thanks for the additional stuff about Baker St.

Mick - useful observations. Many thanks.

Brian

 

[Engineer]

On post 278: Thanks, I spotted that picture, too, when going through possibilities. Still looking at drawings, however, to set some date boundaries on the loco 11 and siding image, such as when proposals and design for the canteen began to come together. I also have seen some drawing evidence suggesting that there may have been other building [or at least concrete] work in that part of Baker Street, pre-war.
Other research is going on with the loco 15 spoked wheels question and on timetables for Watford, related to the images of loco 1. The Moorgate Q Stock image may take longer to resolve. My instinct is that it's not part of a routine 'round-the-week' service, but possibly a holiday-related service or in connection with a closure, as suggested.
I'll make better progress and summarise what I've found once I'm through a current busy work spell.