An Unusual Collection

Engineer

Western Thunderer
Observations on the latest images:

K Class loco on No.3 Goods train. Livery and lettering style of loco, albeit Metropolitan, would be also present under early London Transport, for the first 2-3 years after 1933 takeover. It’s a very fine and useful image.

There’s a view of K Class 112 on No. 3 Goods taken on 17 August 1935 by H C Casserley which was published in May 2018 Backtrack. Location given as Chorley Wood and looks similar, albeit a different point of taking.

Have no direct evidence on the train’s time schedule to hand, but looking at Goods Train Supplement 1/5/1931, the No. 3 train is broadly a late daytime trip in the Up direction and an end-of-day and overnight Down trip. Subsequently, it departs Verney Junction just after 8am, and calls at most but not all intermediate yards reaching Harrow by 9:49pm. It passed through Chorley Wood late afternoon. Train 3 in 1931 was allowed to be up to 600 tons load if a G or K class locomotive and 20T brake was used. Looking at the Freight Train Supplement 17/7/1939, there is a very similar run for train 3, so I feel it’s reasonable to infer the train working changed little through the years in question, 1933 to 1935/6.

In the Aylesbury image with loco 97, I believe the loco livery is of the early London Transport style, so image date may run from mid-1933 to 1935 or 1936.

The image of loco 5 is taken outside the Electric Car Shed at Neasden [the Baker Street end]. Name plates in that style were fitted and in service progressively from October 1927 onwards. By the way, archive evidence gives a cost of £5/3/0 per plate plus £140 costs for fitting plates to all the locomotives. In the background, the 3rd Class vehicle is 1913 Saloon Stock [elliptical roof and, added as an edit after checking pictures, the width of vertical panels adjacent to doorway] but not enough evidence to say which sort of vehicle.

I agree that H Class loco at Harrow-on-the-Hill is in the [old number] platform 3, headed in the Down direction. The loco has an oval form of company name and an oval large makers plate, which places the image relatively early in the career of these locos [entering service from mid-1920 to July 1921]. The train is of interest and may influence dating slightly, with a Bogie Stock coach formed in second position and other vehicles appear all to be Main Line Stock [‘Dreadnought’]. First vehicle is a 3rd Class Brake Coach and the third vehicle is a 1st Class Coach [from number of compartments]. The Bogie Stock vehicle is a 3rd Class Coach [by counting compartments]. It would be normal sometimes to include Bogie Stock vehicles in a Main Line Stock train to complete the formation up to the early 1920s, until later deliveries of Main Line Stock arrived. All but three of the remaining Bogie Stock loco-hauled coaches were formed into W Stock electric trains during the last half of 1921 leaving only three spare coaches remaining until 1924, two of which were 3rd Class. Best odds, therefore, are that the image dates from 1920/21 but could stretch to 1924.

I, too, agree that the junction image is Quainton Road, with excellent detail of the signal which I believe to be Metropolitan in style, and the usefulness of this image in a layout and signalling sense reinforces, I believe, the proposition that KB connects this sub-collection of images to Ken Benest. Worth noting also KB’s work on Metropolitan coach and car stock, published in ‘Underground News’, which provided the foundation for further research and publication in later years, yet his strong expertise was signalling, and he provided a substantial appendix on the subject in the great work on the history of the company by Jackson.

A footnote on post 189, the image of a G class loco. Purely speculation, that the loco appears to be on track whose 'ballast' shoulder seems to be supported by timbers. This could be the steam loco part of Neasden yard.
 
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76043

Western Thunderer
Have no direct evidence on the train’s time schedule to hand, but looking at Goods Train Supplement 1/5/1931, the No. 3 train is broadly a daytime trip in the Up direction and an end-of-day and overnight Down trip to return. It departs Verney Junction just after 8am, and calls at most but not all intermediate yards reaching Harrow by 9:49pm. It passed through Chorley Wood late afternoon. Train 3 in 1931 was allowed to be up to 600 tons load if a G or K class locomotive and 20T brake was used. Looking at the Freight Train Supplement 17/7/1939, there is a very similar run for train 3, so I feel it’s reasonable to infer the train working changed little through the years in question, 1933 to 1935/6.

Just the sort of wonderful detail I wish we modellers took more of an interest in and tried to describe/show/intepret on our layouts. The level of detail of the physical model is immense nowadays, but the interpretation of how and why the train is where it is, is sorely lacking in my view.

Peter Denny knew how to do it!

The District Controller's book for this section of line describes a 1950/60s working that the author claimed to be one of the longest in time duration of any pickup goods working, similar to this one. Basically all day to go not very far!!!

Tony
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
How I agree, Tony. This just gets better and better!

Engineer - your detailed info is quite inspiring in expanding these photos in to a meaningful understanding of the varied and interesting railway which comprised the Met.

Martin and 76043. For sure that's the junction at Quainton. I've been there any number of times but failed to recognise it.

Arun - your info is, as ever, of huge value. Those photos, as used by Frank Goudie (although of unproven provenance) and also the possibility of Ken Benest photos being in this collection lead me in to a situation with which I need some help. Should I now withdraw these in order to protect unproven and actually unknown copyright, or are we safe to let them stand? I have to say that, until I had your advice I had no idea that these were previously known or suspected so to withdraw them presents no difficulties to me personally although the interest they have generated suggests that their use as historical and research documents goes far beyond my personal interest.

I have another here identified as being by "KB" and I'll hold it until I have some advice. It's a shame as the photo is of electric loco No 15, the rarely photographed "Wembley 1924" (complete with Wembley Lion) which was withdrawn for scrap in 1951 following an accident. In truth it's not the greatest of photos, and is in part shown in the photo of loco N0 5 in my previous posting, but is of interest to Met enthusiasts because of its rarity.

(As a side issue it's of particular peripheral interest to me, personally, as I was a great ice hockey enthusiast in the '60s and didn't miss a Wembley Lions - George Beech and Chick Zamick - home match in two consecutive years.)

Brian
 

76043

Western Thunderer
On the question of copyright, take a look at this page on GOV.UK, it tells you all you need to know.

Exceptions to copyright

As for the copyright itself, the photograph becomes copyright free from 70 years after the date of death of the author, I've no idea of the ages of the photographers you mentioned, but it might be possible they are no longer in copyright if they died before 1948.

I'd argue that you could reproduce the image of No.15 under non-commercial research, WT is non-commercial as I understand it.

I should add that I deal with copyright at my work so am writing this from a professional perspective.

Tony
 

Engineer

Western Thunderer
Noted the comment in post 202 and agree fully. My life has given me opportunities to glimpse inside Engineering, Operations and Scheduling and throughout this I’ve taken interest in the history, the technicalities and sought out the information that would be useful for high-fidelity modelling. Collaborative research across these aspects of the Metropolitan's history has brought out much detail that's not covered in the standard publications on locomotives and rolling stock, has resolved some long-standing imponderables, and has brought the railway, which employed my father and grandfather, much more to life for me. Alas, my forbears did not take notes or pictures, and in the archives of documents and drawings there are still tantalising gaps to be filled, and there are other aspects of the railway to be considered. Even so, the material and multiple sources I've examined so far have given me a much richer story than if I'd stayed with the textbooks alone.

Some of my most rewarding learning has come from the questions and needs of modellers, from seeking to explain pictures, and internet discussions, while noticing [and staying out of] the controversies. This thread is one such discussion and I’ve learnt by listening and looking beyond the textbooks and puzzling things out, so many thanks for sharing such interesting and challenging stuff.

To expand on the post 202 comment on the Goods working, here's the outline [not full detail or every yard call] for train 3 Up and Down workings in 1931 for Weekdays with minor variations between MF and Sa [here shown in the 24-hour clock]. Edited to convert timings correctly:

3 Up
1600 off shed Neasden Light Engine
1835 depart Willesden Green after shunting Yard
1841 arrive Finchley Road
Loco continues as train 3 Down

3 Down
2117 depart Finchley Road
2222 depart Willesden Green after shunting Yard
2228 to 0006 [following day] Neasden ‘Loco Time Allowed’
0020 to 0100 Harrow North
0120 to 0220 Rickmansworth
0240 to 0320 Chalfont & Latimer
0414 to 0450 Aylesbury
0510 to 0550 Quainton Road
0610 arrive Verney Junction
Loco to train 3 Up departure 0810

3 Up
0810 depart Verney Junction
0857 to 1030 Quainton Road ‘Loco Time Allowed’
1100 to 1151 Aylesbury
1747 to 1919 Rickmansworth
1930 to 2035 Watford
2149 to 2259 Harrow North depart Light Engine
2308 to Shed [Neasden]

On the ‘KB’ point raised in post 203. I’ll accept expert opinion on the ethics, whatever that may be.

Generally, the pictures here are mostly unique and new to me, but not necessarily new to all. I can’t recall any published pictures attributed to KB and I think on balance of probability the pictures here that are marked KB are his collection rather than his photography, and have become part of the ‘Herbert’ collection. Specifically, having delved into the extreme detail and history of Metropolitan electric locomotives [but still not as deep as Ken de Groome] I agree that pictures of loco 15 are relatively rare, so the image of this particular loco is of research interest to us at least and may help to resolve one of the questions of detail that remain.

There’s another slightly lighter aside to this, given that the '15' picture has this loco adjacent to '5' in today's picture. I looked this evening at several other Met. era pictures of electric locomotives outside Neasden Car Sheds. None duplicated the image here, and all were different and included various other vehicles in the background and most had the subject loco close to, or coupled to another. I guess we may all have a similar frustration with pictures – what’s been cropped at the edge? what was alongside? or hidden behind? Just need to see a foot or two more either side to answer my questions on detail, train consist, stock allocation etc….
 
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76043

Western Thunderer
Thank you again for this information, one quick question, where did the loco end up after Verney Junction, Aylesbury? Where would the crew go, you mention lodging, why would they stay overnight when they could go back to Neasden quite easily? Sorry if I have misunderstood anything and made 2+2=5.
Tony
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Noted the comment in post 202 and agree fully. My life has given me opportunities to glimpse inside Engineering, Operations and Scheduling and throughout this I’ve taken interest in the history, the technicalities and sought out the information that would be useful for high-fidelity modelling. Collaborative research across these aspects of the Metropolitan's history has brought out much detail that's not covered in the standard publications on locomotives and rolling stock, has resolved some long-standing imponderables, and has brought the railway, which employed my father and grandfather, much more to life for me. Alas, my forbears did not take notes or pictures, and in the archives of documents and drawings there are still tantalising gaps to be filled, and there are other aspects of the railway to be considered. Even so, the material and multiple sources I've examined so far have given me a much richer story than if I'd stayed with the textbooks alone.

Some of my most rewarding learning has come from the questions and needs of modellers, from seeking to explain pictures, and internet discussions, while noticing [and staying out of] the controversies. This thread is one such discussion and I’ve learnt by listening and looking beyond the textbooks and puzzling things out, so many thanks for sharing such interesting and challenging stuff.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment although I have no engineering background, however my dad's uncle worked on the Met and it's successor LPTB as chief booking clerk at Baker St and likewise did not take any photographs nor make notes. It is good to see previously unpublished photographs which are useful for modelling and research purposes.
 
A

Arun

Guest
Brian - I can't lay my hands on my copy of Ken Benest's book on Met Electric Locos at present so I can't say whether any pics in there might have appeared in WT but I agree with the correspondents on here that such pictures and their intrinsic historical information justify "publishing" them on this forum as research and "Why & how did they do things that way in the past?" tools.
It is possible that the historical information generated by the correspondents here on looking at this diverse set of pictures has been greater than that known by the original photographer of course and given that part of the justification of publishing them is to trace their provenance, I would say, "Continue".
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Thank you again for this information, one quick question, where did the loco end up after Verney Junction, Aylesbury? Where would the crew go, you mention lodging, why would they stay overnight when they could go back to Neasden quite easily? Sorry if I have misunderstood anything and made 2+2=5.
Tony

My understanding from reading Bill Simpson's book A History of the Metropolitan Railway Volume Three from Aylesbury north to Verney Junction and Brill is the loco (after marshalling the 18:10 arrival) would return to Aylesbury for servicing then return to Verney Junction around 3 am to meet the coal trains from Woodford Halse and other overnight goods trains in the exchange sidings. It would then continue to London as the 08:10 goods after marshalling.

Aylesbury was a Met and GW shed which contained separate offices for each company. The book goes on to say two Met engines were based at there for working the goods trains. It could therefore be deduced the loco returned to Aylesbury for servicing and crew lodging.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Brian - I can't lay my hands on my copy of Ken Benest's book on Met Electric Locos at present so I can't say whether any pics in there might have appeared in WT but I agree with the correspondents on here that such pictures and their intrinsic historical information justify "publishing" them on this forum as research and "Why & how did they do things that way in the past?" tools.

I've just had a look at my copy of Metropolitan Electric Locomotives by K R Benest and the photos posted here do not appear in the book.
 

Engineer

Western Thunderer
Responding to post 207:

I’m grateful for the correct challenge to the information in my post 206 and I apologise for my inverted 24-hour clock conversion. My added aside on the lodging of the loco at VJ was out of puzzlement as it seemed very odd to me when I read what I'd written. I thought I’d copied from the wrong working, looked at it several ways yet still couldn’t make the corrections. In another life I‘m very used to setting out timings across midnight as 2400, 2500, 2600 etc., so have now done it the work way, and amended the posted train 3 working. Originally thought to convert that way but expected I’d make mistakes and so confuse everyone even more in the process.

Tongue in cheek, I’ve broken several of my usual safety rules multiple times – allow up to a week to check, reflect and obtain peer review on anything I write, never respond to anything until at least one day has passed and avoid posting anything on the internet! Seriously, I know I consciously miss or mess things in life, persistently, and formal diagnosis has been helpful hindsight but … too much detail right now. Anyway, the priority here is taking every opportunity to understand and explain the intricacies of the Metropolitan while I can, and that includes this excellent thread, its pictures and its questions, for which I’m grateful.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thank you everyone for your continuing assistance with these photos, and despite the matter of possible copyright I'm convinced enough about the value of publishing them in order to collect more info than is otherwise known - in other words as research material. I think we've proven their value already!

I'll respond in full later. In the meantime, for homework, the photos of the Brill branch are not far off, so it will be useful for any publications about this to be to hand.:D The first, which I started on yesterday, is alleged to be of the loco shed at Brill.

Brian
 
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76043

Western Thunderer
Brian, You mean we have to wait a week for the next instalment?? Only joking, looking forward to seeing them.

I'm going to dig out my copy of the District Controller's book to see if there are similarities between the No.3 goods working and the one mentioned in the book from the 50/60s.

As an aside, I got a copy off eBay last night of the 1960 GC passenger working timetable, will look forward to that arriving.
Cheers
Tony
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
The District Controller's book for this section of line describes a 1950/60s working that the author claimed to be one of the longest in time duration of any pickup goods working, similar to this one. Basically all day to go not very far!!!

I suspect it was more than likely the case of having to fit in with the intensive passenger services to and from Aylesbury and the additional electric services from Rickmansworth and Watford on what was then a double track to Harrow before the widening was completed in 1962.

This would explain a relatively powerful loco on what appears to be a short goods train coupled with the fact it was and still is a stiff climb in either direction through the Chilterns to Dutchlands summit between Great Missenden and Amersham.

I tend to forget the Chilterns are quite steep and only realise this when I'm visiting family and friends in Mid/South Bucks, West Herts and South Beds.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
More thanks, David and 76043. More helpful info.

I'm back from a week on the Norfolk Broads. Actually an excuse to do some coarse fishing - on the last day I caught a huge bream - the remainder of the week had been good, but yesterday was exceptional. However, to more important matters.

This is the promised photo of Met Railway electric loco No 15, "Wembley 1924" at the Electric Car Shed at Neasden as advised by Engineer. I've never seen a photo of this loco previously - as I mentioned in an earlier posting it was one of the first scrapped following an accident. I'm sure the loco behind is No 5 of which I've already published a photo. This one is identified as "KBC 4835".

img410  KBC 4835.  Copy.jpg

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
This one is an absolute beauty, and crying out to be modelled. I don't see how this one could have been taken by Mr Herbert but there's no record of a photo reference or photographer. This is simply endorsed "Engine Shed, Brill". The original print is dark, covered in blemishes and exceptionally high contrast, so within the limitations of dealing with a printed image I've done my best to lift it, sharpen it and drop the contrast back a bit to make as much detail visible as possible. I also suspect that the original photo was taken on blue sensitive film which would account for the somewhat strange tonal and "painterly" appearance. Unless this image is previously known I suggest that it's of great historical value.

img411  endorsed Engine Shed, Brill - Copy.jpg

Brian
 

Keith Phillips

Western Thunderer
That's another stunning image. We used to live in the area and the rather ramshackle brick building is so typical of others around there. I am really enjoying the results of your work. :thumbs:
 
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