An Unusual Collection

Discussion in 'Gallery' started by oldravendale, 4 November 2018.

  1. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    I remember seeing an old converted central line car as a de-icing unit stationed at Rickmansworth during the 1970s and I recall the colour as a very dark crimson verging on brown as on this ex T stock deicing unit I photographed at Neasden many moons ago
  2. Peter Insole

    Peter Insole Western Thunderer

    I'm not sure whether the livery goes back to London Electric Railway days, but certainly from the earliest LPTB, all service stock - ballast and pilot motors, engineering, stores and personnel carriers etc., were painted grey. I know that I have a note somewhere, but suspect that the colour was changed to "Bullock maroon" sometime in the sixties?

    Apparently, there were three original B stock motors converted to weed killers, and painted overall grey as well, but can find no details of when they were finally withdrawn.

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  3. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Many thanks, Peter. Did they carry the "London TransporT" branding as well?

  4. Peter Insole

    Peter Insole Western Thunderer

    Indeed, they did!

  5. Arun

    Arun Western Thunderer

    Antony Badsey-Ellis's masterpiece "Building london's Underground" [Capital Transport, 2016] identifies "S&K" as [John] Smith & [George] Knight and they were one of two contractors for the early Met. They built the bit from the junction with the GWR at Paddington to the western side of Euston Square. They had built various lines around this country and overseas in the 1850s and thrived until the financial crash of 1866.
  6. Arun

    Arun Western Thunderer

    Peter - The weed killing cars you refer to were WK840-842 and they were converted from B stock built in 1905 by Brush. They were converted to weed killing cars in 1935 and scrapped between Feb-Mar 1950.
  7. Peter Insole

    Peter Insole Western Thunderer

    Thanks for that info Arun.

    Clearly, Brian's pic is not one of those then. Admittedly, the shot is not clear enough to reveal the pertinent details - like the plain facia panel with small radii above the doorways and the slightly curved tops to the windows on a "B"

    It is almost certainly a former steel "C" or "D" motor car, revealed by what looks like the control cubicle door open across the motorman's position at the left hand end!

    I had a bit of fun with the issue of those wretched doors, but that is another story I have yet to tell...!

  8. Engineer

    Engineer Member

    A follow-up from the Harrow picture in post 148 and subsequent discussions. Thanks for the reminder of Odeon Radio, I’d forgotten about it even though I’d looked inside many years ago. From visiting during the past week, I notice the new building on the same site is called Odeon House.

    I promised to come up with a dating rationale for the image, even though I can’t make it particularly tight – it is between 1939 and about 1946. I have had a fuller look at LT Museum online pictures this weekend to clarify my working.

    The signal has the Met designation J68 and pre-dates the 1948 commissioning of new signalling and with the Met sign also in view, it is definitely earlier than the LT Museum picture of old plus new signals side-by-side March 10 1948.

    There is shadow over the loco and the area nearest to the photographer. This has to be from the new station structure following rebuilding. From drawings of steelwork and station structure, and from general information on the rebuilding, I’m confident that the new station and structure was largely in place and in use and casting shadows by early 1939.

    I believe the latest date for the image is set by the loco re-numbering date of 1946 [post 160]. Clues from the stock in the LNER train may refine the date window.

    I should explain why I had thought initially that the layout change was significant for dating. I'd looked at surviving drawings for the layout works several of which were ready by early 1939, but photographic evidence tells me the layout changes critical to dating the image weren’t implemented until 1948. Two pictures in the LT Museum collection show the layout before and after changes to the Up and Down Main Line tracks, during early 1948, taken from the new cabin structure high above the station:
    Harrow layout 1948 02 24
    This shows the Down and Up adjacent tracks, broadly as in the image.
    Harrow layout 1948 04 30
    This shows the realignment of the former Down Main Line track to the new Up Main, with a trailing crossover added, connecting to the new Down Main.

    Explaining these by referring back to the image under discussion, we see the track closest to our photographer [Main Line Down] aligned close to the adjacent Up track on which the LNER train is passing. This was the long-established layout at Harrow. As part of the layout changes, eventually post-war, the old Down platform was cut back for the line to be slewed leftwards. I infer that this was not only to ease the curve but also to give clearance for movements taking the new trailing crossover between Up and Down, not far north of the platform. A new platform 1 was created to the left, out of the image, for the new Down Main, and the former Down Line became the Up Line in its new alignment.
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  9. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Loadsa info, chaps, and thanks so much. Also a special thank you to Engineer for continuing to follow up the Harrow photo. Despite its poor quality it's created more discussion than almost anything.

    This next one is, I believe, a Met G Class. I've spent a long time cleaning up the dirt but I've made no effort to improve the significant emulsion damage over the front and forward of the driving wheel - by now that's part of the image itself! I've also trawled all the Met loco photos I can find and not located this one. Location and date not known. Number appears to be 105.

    img406 - Copy.jpg

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  10. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    The loco is No. 95 Robert H Selbie. There were on four in this class;94 Lord Aberconway, 95 Robert H. Selbie, 96 Charles Jones and 97 Brill

    All transferred to the LNER in 1937 when LPTB handed over their goods services to concentrate on passenger traffic.

    I would suspect this is taken either at Verney Junction exchange sidings or any of the yards between Aylesbury and Rickmansworth (including Watford and Chesham) where there were significant goods yards. Possibly even Finchley Road. The wagon behind would be a SC (Stephenson Clarke) vehicle.
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  11. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Thanks, David. Of course the number is 95! A blind man could've seen that!

    The photo below has taken a great deal of cleaning up but is, I think, very much worth the effort. It was covered in black spots, probably due to emulsion deterioration of the negative and most of these have been reasonably successfully removed. Once again I've done an extensive search of known photographs to see if this one appears anywhere else - it appears not.

    Apart from knowing that the 0-4-4T loco is one of the Met's "E" Class, built between 1896 and 1901, (the one preserved as "N0 1" and previously L44 was No 79) I believe that No 78 was actually scrapped around 1935 and never joined the LT fleet. The electric loco, No 7 I know less about. As far as I can make out it would have been introduced in around 1906 and probably scrapped around 1925. In 1920 the H class 4-4-4T locos replaced the E class on major passenger work so circumstantially this photo is dated at between 1906 and 1920.

    As electrification had only reached as far as Harrow by 1905 (Rickmansworth was not reached until 1925) I suspect that this photograph is there but someone may find clues here which confirm or deny the possibility. We should remember that a century ago Harrow remained very countrified and the trees and palatial residences should come as no surprise, although what they thought of overlooking a railway servicing yard we'll never know.


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  12. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    I also think this is Harrow.

    There are four tracks indicating GC presence and looking the 1912-14 map the photo is taken from the road off Station Road leading to the station. The building then located on the Met down line rather than the usual up line.

    Explore georeferenced maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland

    I'll dig through my library to find more information about the locomotives.
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  13. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    The next one I came across is almost certainly a masked version of the photo above, ie a selective print of the electric loco only. Just out of interest below is the original scan, just to give a sense of some of the damage with which I'm attempting to deal. In every case I'm endevouring to maintain the integrity of the original picture, and if I'm uncertain whether a mark is part of the original image I'll leave it in.

    img407 original.jpg
    As well as dealing with the physical damage a little play with density, contrast and sharpness usually gives a measure of improvement.

    So, once again, electric loco No 7, but overall a more detailed image.


  14. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    I was tempted to say "....and now for something completely different" but it's all been rather different, hasn't it?

    I forgot to thank Yorkshire Dave for his work on the previous image. I'm still trying to work out the view point from my knowledge of Harrow on the Hill Station, which I knew quite well during my formative years but I'm not there yet.

    This was a super image on which to work - very clean and a five minute job. I believe it's at Neasden with the power house as the back drop. What a very beautiful building that was, not that I appreciated it particularly even when it was knocked down. I'm going to add nothing to the work of Graham Hewett which I've gleaned from the District Dave's London Underground Forum (Oh Bu**er - another rabbit hole) who says:

    Apparently, the complete train comprised some or all of the following:
    - a 30(not 20)* ton crane - C604 built in 1924 by Cowans and purchased in 1925
    - a 4 wheel jib carrier J682 (ex Met 50, possibly secondhand in 1882, but maybe of 1886), at some stage replaced by ...
    - ...J683 of 1919
    - tool van BD 700 (ex Met milk van 3) - this is the restored one that we all know and love (a lot!)
    - tool van BD701 (ex Met milk van 5)
    - BD702, a 4 wheel box van
    - BD703, an 8 bogie van
    - BD 704 (ex BW251) used as a flat wagon for conveying spare bogies.

    I recall a grey livery with some vehicles having red ends to the bodywork in the'50s and early '60s, possibly with London Transport in a silvery grey outlined in black but given the general state of the vehicles , that may well have started out as gold.

    Presumably, this vast cavalcade of vehicles rarely turned out all together!

    That's a superb find for details of a rarely described subject.

    So here it is.

    img407 - Copy.jpg

  15. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Even though I've added nothing to this thread since Tuesday I've been working away o the PC. As a result there are fully five more pictures to come. Once again there is no proper attribution and I don't believe these have ever seen the light of day previously. These images are all rather over exposed in the printing and it's difficult to pull detail out of the shadows. Once again I'd love to get my hands on the negatives!

    Here's the first. It's a Met Railway K Class 2-6-4T which bears distinct similarities to Maunsell's creations for the SE & CR. I believe that these were in fact associated with the locos built at Woolwich Arsenal which I think were part of a government inspired work creation scheme. Doubtless one of our WT-ers will give chapter and verse. They were built in 1925 and transferred to the LNER in 1937 which gives a window of twelve years in which this photo could have been taken but I know not where. I'll hazard a guess at somewhere between Rickmansworth and Aylesbury.

    img408 - Copy.jpg

    Next is an H Class 4-4-4T - I can't determine a number - at Harrow on the Hill. These were built by Kerr Stuart & Company in 1920 becoming LNER Class H2 in 1935.


    This is Met Electric Loco No 5 John Hampden and I believe at Neasden. This is the loco now preserved in the LT Museum. I believe that this photo is probably contemporary with the two photos above, and the rather floral nature of the nameplate rather confirms this for me. After the war the nameplates were much plainer. In the right background is a coach side with "Third" clearly visible. When did the Met cease using class classifications on their vehicles?

    The attribution on the reverse of this print is "KB C 4738"

    img409  Endorsed KB C 4738.jpg

    This is a Met Railway G Class 0-6-4T No 97 "Brill". (Incidentally there are photos to come of the Brill Branch). The G Class were built by the Yorkshire Engine Company in 1915 becoming the LNER M2 Class in 1937. I can't identify the location but suspect it may be Aylesbury.

    Attribution on the reverse of this print is "KB. C4811"

    img409  Endorsed KB.  C4811.   - Copy.jpg

    Finally for this set is a photo of a junction but with no description. Perhaps there are some details here which will help to identify the location? This print is endorsed " KBC 1976"

    img410  KBC 1976.jpg

  16. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    I have a feeling that the junction is possibly Quainton Road Junc, to the left GC to the north, to the right Met to Verney Junc. Can't find anything yet to confirm this hypothesis.
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  17. DougT

    DougT Western Thunderer

    Photo of No97 'Brill' looks very much like Aylesbury given the configuration of the canopy, footbridge and bell tower (?) all of which are still extant today.
  18. 76043

    76043 Western Thunderer

    With regards to the third class coach and nameplate on the electric, all images must be pre 1933, when the MET was taken over by LPTB, plus time taken for repaints, obvs. I recall seeing the photo of the last Brill train in 1935 had LT branding on the loco. I understand first/third class was abolished by LT in 1940.

    Once again, great images.
  19. 76043

    76043 Western Thunderer

  20. Arun

    Arun Western Thunderer

    The photograph of 97 "Brill" and the "H" class at HTH both occur in Frank Goudie's 1990 [Capital Transport] book "Metropolitan Steam Locomotives" and are unattributed. Given that Frank religiously attributed the pics in the book where the provenance was known, but knowing that Frank was a schoolchild in the late 1920's, they are unlikely to be taken by him. I suspect that the "KB" on the back of the print may well refer to the late Ken Benest, well known amongst the LT modelling fraternity for his book on Metropolitan Electric Locos - but that is not confirmed.

    The book's caption for 97 confirms that the pic was taken at Aylesbury around 1930.
    Regarding the pic at HTH, It is a H class on a down train to Aylesbury taken between 1920 and 1925 since that latter date is when electrification to Rickmansworth was completed and passenger steam locos were exchanged for electric locos there.

    Last edited: 13 June 2019
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