Prototype Where? When, What is going on?

So many questions! The attached photo was lifted from somewhere that I cannot recall so I can't give an attribution. I have had to reduce its size to accommodate the forum limit but little has been lost by that process.
These are a few of my observations but please chip in with further comment. I'd love to know where this is all happening. There is much to intrigue on close inspection.

• The mix of GW and predominantly LMS wagons with a random selection of PO wagons. The condition of the wagons suggests postwar but pre-nationalisation.
• The loco looks to be an LMS type - not my area of knowledge!
• The presence of the senior railwayman on the right suggests that the train of containers and new tractors is of some importance or he just wanted to be in the photo!
• The works with the multiple square chimneys
• The incline and the lift from the works to the loading platform.
• It looks as if stone or concrete products are stacked awaiting despatch.
• The man attaching or removing the chains to the top of a container on the left.
• The methods of securing the tractors and containers.
• The loading gauge is obscuring a recently painted company name with a location of Grxxxy (Grimsby?)

The more you look the more you find!
Dave

A David Brown tractor expert (not me) might be able to help a little.

If we assume they are new, their journey would have started in Huddersfield. Doesn’t help much does it?
Reminds me of a Norfolk trait - a bit cautious and want to weigh you up before offering help. If you stop and ask for directions the first thing they say is “Well where hev yew just cum frorm?” - as if it has anything to do with where you are or where you want to be......

Those might be VAK 1 models in which case they were made from 1939-1945.
If they are VAK 1A then 1945-1947.
If VAK 1C ‘Cropmaster’ then 1947-1954.
No there wasn’t a VAK 1B....

So if someone could identify the model it would give an earliest date.
And it is likely to be somewhere with a rail connection to Huddersfield.....

Well - it’s a start isn’t it?

Ah - perhaps it’s all about the power lift (3-point linkage seen on back of tractor).
The early VAK 1s (in fact maybe all of them) were sold without power lift - because at that time there had been nothing yet made to lift.
David Brown and Ferguson (he of Powerlift fame) collaborated.
The VAK 1C had a built-in lift (as opposed to bolt-on aftermarket lift with which some VAK 1s and 1As may have been supplied).
A tyre pattern guru might help with date too - those ones might be somewhat dated by 1946?

Note the container being craned at an angle onto something (ladder against it), again behind loading gauge.

I'm not sure of the location (but would have suggested the date cue from the David Browns. The number of re-lettered wagons also suggests an immediate post-war date).

There certainly looks to be a sophisticated-looking linkage on the back of the nearest tractor and the wagon it's loaded on is intriguing (though only displays my ignorance of GW wagon types) as I wasn't aware that Swindon had or built any 3 planks with full length dropsides. There are - predictably - a lot of Medfits, an LMS speciality.

That almost all the wagons visible are GWR or LMS or pooled private owners doesn't help enormously as that reflects the breakdown of the national wagon fleet - it may hint at the Midlands owing to the lack of NE wagons, and that probably rules out Scotland, but it could just be coincidence. It is certainly on the LMS as loco (a Crab - the footplate and shape is unmistakable) and the 20 ton brake is of the long wheelbase post-'35 type are from that company.

Is that some sort of brick or tile works in the background? Next to a public goods yard which suggests a station somewhere nearby, perhaps the other side of the bridge (but might not!). It's a great picture though (says the resident wagon enthusiast).

Adam

Looking closely at the tractor’s bottom ( ) it looks nothing like DB’s own powerlift on the 1C and very much like the linkage and PTO cover on the VAK 1A.
So likely date range 45 - 47 then?

Loco is definitely a Crab.

I'll have to see if dad can go through his GW wagon books - I have a sudden desire to model that GW medfit... I think the number is 12985?

Adam

Solved by a fellow Thunderer who has been enjoying WT for a few years but who has not yet posted - he’s only had a few minutes spare in between gluing carpet tiles down so asked me to reveal the location.
I think I’ve managed to persuade him to pop in later on to introduce himself (well known to the Love Lane team). At least he is a talented and prolific modeller unlike me!

So it is the goods yard at Meltham, southwest of Holmfirth, onto which David Brown’s tractor factory yard backed.
There is a good 70s image on Flickr taken from the DB yard looking onto the tile (?) factory.
The station proper was out of sight up the line a way.

The works seems to be either using or producing something in bags\sacks. Cement or lime or fertiliser spring to mind. The mix of wagons, predominantly LMS and GWR, could suggest somewhere on the western side of the country?

Edit. Cross post with the above. I was obviously wrong!

Osgood said:

Solved by a fellow Thunderer who has been enjoying WT for a few years but who has not yet posted - he’s only had a few minutes spare in between gluing carpet tiles down so asked me to reveal the location. I think I’ve managed to persuade him to pop in later on to introduce himself (well known to the Love Lane team). At least he is a talented and prolific modeller unlike me!

So it is the goods yard at Meltham, southwest of Holmfirth, onto which David Brown’s tractor factory yard backed.
There is a good 70s image on Flickr taken from the DB yard looking onto the tile factory.
The station proper was out of sight up the line a way.

Click to expand...

Meltham, you mean? (Metham is East Riding).

Like this: 8F at meltham

epw051990 ENGLAND (1936). Meltham Brickworks, Meltham, 1936. This image has been produced from a copy-negative. | Britain From Above

And this is presumably the '70s image: Meltham. David Brown Tractors.

Adam

Meltham here Explore georeferenced maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland

Col.

This is getting like one of those 2-way radio conversations but yes, somewhere in between clicks I corrected the spelling!
Great view of the refractory works on that 8F photo.

Osgood said:

This is getting like one of those 2-way radio conversations but yes, somewhere in between clicks I corrected the spelling!
Great view of the refractory works on that 8F photo.

Click to expand...

Easily done (I edited a history of Metham for work last year so I was certain it wasn't there - there's too much elevation!).

Adam

Great work everyone and many thanks for so much detailed information!
Dave

This photograph was published in Railway Bylines Vol. 18 (8) July 2013 p400. There was no attribution, date or location. The unusual 3 plank wagon in the foreground attracted my attention. This led me to investigating this and I wrote up my conclusions in

Bartlett, Paul W. (2018) Taff Vale Railway 7851 – 7949 drop-side wagons – their GWR/BR usage. Journal of the Historical Model Railway Society vol 23 (1) p5 - 10

To cut a long story short you won't find these in the classic GWR wagon books - there is a photo completely misidentified as an early 3 plank.

There were 100 of these wagons built for the TVR by G R Turner in 1921. The article outlines their renumbering and future usage which was various, but the main use (66 wagons) was for being written for Container Carrying - as this one in the photograph. In the following issue Graham Thomas confirmed it was Meltham with the brickworks in the background and David Brown tractors. A large and forgotten terminus of the LYR!

The important take away message from this is that the GWR wagon books (Atkins et al) have ignored the many tens of thousands of pre-group wagons inherited by the GWR. The information is readily available at the NRM in the GWR Wagon Stock Records (which I describe in some detail in the article). The original numbers are present, crossed through and the new GWR wagon number is given and then considerable detail about each wagon. Unfortunately the GWR continued to re-use numbers from condemned wagons so sometimes there are three "layers" of such details. Even post WW2 they were still infilling like this. Also that they do not appear in the GWR diagram book, despite being, as in this case, of some importance. It does go a little way to clarifying how the GWR carried containers as there is little sign in the GWR wagon books of suitable stock before the type which became the BR Conflat A.

Paul

hrmspaul said:

The important take away message from this is that the GWR wagon books (Atkins et al) have ignored the many tens of thousands of pre-group wagons inherited by the GWR. The information is readily available at the NRM in the GWR Wagon Stock Records (which I describe in some detail in the article).

Click to expand...

So different from Southern Railway wagon books which do not appear to have ignored their inherited pre-group wagons.

I wonder if anyone has noticed the way the tractors are secured to the wagon. They sit at one end of the wagon and are roped to the buffers. How many people mount them in the middle of the wagon? I suppose if they weren't firmly fixed and suffered a rough shunt the tractor would soon go straight through the end of the wagon.
A great photo, and I am still a bit bemused as to why the GW wagon is so far from home. I suppose it's probably war time and wagons were common user.
All the best,

Kevin

Thank you for identifying the wagon, it's very much appreciated and I'll have to track down a copy. Since I can't make a research trip to York any time soon and at least a couple of the NRM research staff I know have just been furloughed, I'll have to take your word for how accessible the information is in the registers. It's a worrying time for the whole archive sector at present.

Yorkshire Dave said:

So different from Southern Railway wagon books which do not appear to have ignored their inherited pre-group wagons.

Click to expand...

The Southern was a very different company to the 'Western (and obviously had a much, much smaller wagon fleet) made up of three components of broadly similar size and with quite independent natures - one of the manifestations of which is that Victoria is still basically two stations despite the both being in the same hands since 1923.

@Suddaby - the three plank is one of at least five GW vehicles visible - at least a couple of the conflats are GW vehicles, the iron mink, obviously, and the five and a half plank next to it. That's fairly normal. It's probably more indicative that there are at least that number of LMS medfits! The only obviously LNER vehicle is also one of the conflats, I think - third container wagon into the rake.

Adam