Peteb's Finney 7 drummond M7

PeteB

Active Member
WOW Thanks everyone, especially the Dale boys.

At last a glimpse of the push-pull (or is it pull-push) mechanism. Great pic Brian, also the pipping too, so I think it's back to the drawing board for me then.
With Steph's explanation, I think I understand the workings. One question, the link between the intermediate lever and the regulator, would it have slipped over the reg handle as I can't see any evidence of a pin on the reg lever, and then pinned in place at the intermediate lever? Also (make that two questions) Would the link be removed when driven by the driver?
I know you said that the reg lever isn't the conventional shape so why would they change it just before it was going to be cut up? I do know (and I think it was Bob Payne who told me) that at the breakers yard, they had just removed the Westinghouse pump and the rest of the push-pull equipment and had just got out the cutting torch, when someone came running from the office shouting stop as it was off to the USA.

The externals I think I'm ok with, so thank you Brian, any and all photos are very much appreciated.

I popped down to Swanage to get some photos, I was told she was in bits but I thought pics of bits would be better than no pics at all.
I got talking to a Guy called Andy, he made a call to a Robert Payne telling me he was the person to talk to, he agreed to pop down and see me.
While I waited I asked Andy to go track side and take as many photos as he could.
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Coupling rod held on my nuts.

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I asked for some shots of the underside, namely the pipe that runs the length of the righthand side

Bob had soooo much info on 53 and also told me about when Martin Finney came down to take photos, notes and measurements etc.
He also gave me a copy of "From Nine Elms To Waterloo" Which has been a great help.

Richard and Steph, Where are all Martin's notes/photos. Are they available? I know they would have been taken after preservation, but every little helps as the saying goes.

I think it would be inappropriate for me to share the contents of FNETW on this or any site due to copyright laws, so if anyone would like a copy then send me a PM with your e-mail and I will scan and send you a copy
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Thanks Peter for the enhancement, but it's of a J15 so no real help, but I can see why Brian thought it might help. So again thank you both.

I did hear a story, and his was after I had meet Bob Payne, that he's got Drummond's Bug in his back garden. Now that would make a nice build.

Again thank you for all your input

Pete
 

phileakins

Western Thunderer
Yes, Bob has the carriage section from the Bug in his garden (and is visible from the train) - he lives about a quarter of a mile from Swanage Station and I've no doubt that he'd be happy for you to take a closer look at it.

The cab and tanks for the M7 are also stored at Swanage, but not readily accessible to visitors. Do you want me to take some photo's of what's there?

Phil
 

PeteB

Active Member
Phil Phil YES PLEASE
I really would like photos of the lub boxes that are fitted to the front of the tanks. I have scratched built two but are from photos from the net and aren't very clear, so I have had to guess as to how they actually look.
This is before I cleaned them up.
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Also more of the underside, and the lagged pipe running down the righthand side. Would like to know where that pipe starts and finishes, Andy didn't manage to get that.
I did see the cab sides lying by the side of the track, righthand side heading towards Corfe Castle, but it was too late as I was heading back at that stage. I guess I could have pulled the emergence cord, but we had passed them before I had a chance, hayho lol
Any photos would be appreciated. Swanage is a long way from me, I live just outside Croydon, but will return when she gets all steamed up again.

Thank you in anticipation

Pete
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Phil,
And a 'yes please' from me as well - I'd be interested to see what the cab and tanks look like off the loco. If it's possible, can you also please squirt a camera down over the frames; the motion and frame staying changed from batch to batch and it would help me enormously to know whether she still is 'original' (whatever that really means) in terms of frame arrangements.
Many thanks!

Pete,
It's Pull-Push on the Southern!
The regulator lever isn't conventional in that it's neither the LSWR or SR versions (compare with what's in the kit ;):D). It appears to me to have an eye for a bayonet pin, which would make sense; the air control would need disconnecting when the loco was driven from the cab. We also know from railway folklore that auto-train locos were not always actually hooked-up for auto working. Although the SR (Ex-LBSCR) system was very reliable and failed-safe, there was always the fear of a loco running away.

Steph
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I know you said that the reg lever isn't the conventional shape so why would they change it just before it was going to be cut up? I do know (and I think it was Bob Payne who told me) that at the breakers yard, they had just removed the Westinghouse pump and the rest of the push-pull equipment and had just got out the cutting torch, when someone came running from the office shouting stop as it was off to the USA.
Hi again, Pete.

I woz there! I don't think it was quite as dramatic as you describe. I photographed the same loco in super condition at Nine Elms in August 1964 (sadly the photo is badly out of focus so not suitable for reproduction) but it was clearly in the same external state as when withdrawn. When I photographed it at Eastleigh it was parked outside the works alongside 30926 and both were complete. At the time locos for destruction were normally stored in the shed yard. I've no doubt that both locos had been identified as preservation candidates way before they ended up at Eastleigh.

It's regrettable that the pull push apparatus was removed during the restoration process, and this is one of the reasons that I'm pretty sure what we see in these photos is original condition. However......

As the last working location for 30053 was probably on empty stock between Clapham and Waterloo (hence the allocation to Nine Elms) the pull push equipment would not have been used so it's quite likely that any repairs or changes in the cab were made without any consideration of any pull push requirement so it's quite possible that the original regulator handle was replaced.

Brian
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
As the last working location for 30053 was probably on empty stock between Clapham and Waterloo (hence the allocation to Nine Elms) the pull push equipment would not have been used so it's quite likely that any repairs or changes in the cab were made without any consideration of any pull push requirement so it's quite possible that the original regulator handle was replaced.


Dad,
Sort of. It would explain why the link between the lever assembly and the regulator handle is completely missing if the pull-push gear was effectively isolated. Unfortunately, according to The Book of the M7 0-4-4Ts, her last allocation was Bournemouth; which would have involved pull-push workings.

Her regulator handle would have been replaced twice; once when Urie took charge and again later when fitted with pull-push gear. In your photo she retains the latter (with the peg hole) - it would be interesting to know what regulator handle she currently has...

There is a photo of 53 in The Book of the M7 0-4-4Ts showing her in Eastleigh yard on 19 Feb '67 with pull-push gear removed (and very tidily too). This would seem to tie in well with when your photo was taken.

Steph
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
This is interesting to those of us with a LSWR bent.......

According to Rail UK 53 was withdrawn, as you say, from Bournemouth at the end of May 1964. When I photographed it at Nine Elms in August 1964 it was, admittedly, not in steam, but looked in far from withdrawn condition. This raises one or two questions, not the least of which would be why was the loco moved from Bournemouth to Nine Elms (not a concentration depot for withdrawn locos) rather than direct to the relatively local Eastleigh? There was no cap over the chimney, a normal practice when locos were in store, and there's another M7 evident in the photo.

I'm attaching the photo in question - probably the worst I've ever put on WT and am ever likely to :) but it helps to demonstrate what I'm chuntering on about. 30053.  Nine Elms Shed.  August 1964.  Personal Collection.  Photo by Brian Dale.  FINAL.jpg
In fact I have free access to the photos of a good friend who accompanied me to Nine Elms on the same day. I'm pretty sure that 30111 below was withdrawn from Bournemouth in January 1964. In fact I suspect that this is the loco in the background of the photo above.

RV1.  Nine Elms.  24 Aug 64.  0-4-4T M7 30111..jpg

So, all things considered, I dunno what this means about 53, but 30111 was scrapped at Briton Ferry at the end of October 1964 so may have simply been on its way there for scrapping. As a generality most locos going for scrapping had a card tag on them and none is visible here, but that's by no means definitive. Despite appearances to the contrary perhaps 53 was on the way there too and was called back which may be the actual situation to which Pete refers.

Brian
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Her regulator handle would have been replaced twice; once when Urie took charge and again later when fitted with pull-push gear. In your photo she retains the latter (with the peg hole) - it would be interesting to know what regulator handle she currently has...

Just been back through some records and found the answer - she retains her pull-push regulator handle, but none of the rest of the equipment.

Steph
 

PeteB

Active Member
Blimey !!!! Should have changed channels ages ago, would have save me some work!!!!
I can concur with Steph, she still does have the same Regulator as pictured in "FNETW"
With big thanks to the Dale boys, I have now got my head around the pull-push cab mech. So there's a bit of scratch building ahead of me, at least I now know how it all went together. I think this has been an eye opener for many on here.

We all like a good story and I guess through time and with many telling you end up with the Chinese whisper syndrome!!!! Saved in the nick of time!!

Brian, I would very much like to see some more photos of 53 and any of M7's. Any would be much appreciated.

Pete
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Sorry, Pete. I've only two more photos of M7s, both of 30048 at Seaton in black & white. Neither are good as they are box camera photos, against the sun and late in the evening. I don't think they'll tell you anything more than you already know. There are quite a lot from various publications but they are, of course, copyright.

Brian
 

PeteB

Active Member
Brian, the photos you have sent me have helped me no end, and I'm sure that goes for others on this site so thank you. I'm just greedy.;)

Dave, that would be great, I shall look forward to see what you've got. Thanks

Steph, would I be right in saying that the interior of the cab should be painted Ochre?

Pete
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph, would I be right in saying that the interior of the cab should be painted Ochre?

Pete,
Generally, yes. Always worth a check if you can, but the modeller's folklore of cream cab interiors seems to have been mostly derived from Midland practise.
The line of the cab toolbox tops seems to be the 'break' - black below, ochre above. Well, for the Southern at least.

Steph
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
This business of painting the top half of steam loco cab interiors variations of cream got me wondering years ago when someone asked me if the L&YR A Class 0-6-0's had it. Why hadn't I noticed it during my time on the railway? Maybe it was there all the time, but very dirty or burned.
 

phileakins

Western Thunderer
OK chaps - It'll have to wait until the present FS jamboree is over as no-one is allowed lineside (including station limits) unless on duty. I think they're worried someone might put it in their pocket and walk away with it. :D

I should be able to get some shots down between the frames, as long as I can get high enough.

Phil
 
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