Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

I get the sense, judging by the satisfactory but not outstanding responses to the most recent photos that they are good subjects but not outstanding. Strange for me to say but I don't disagree. Tim agrees that these are in his period of trying to create the perfect photo and that he's been influenced by famous photographers about whom we are all aware.

I reckon this might fall in to that category, but to my eye it's simply a lovely photo of a scene now long gone. Even the station doesn't exist any more.

This is "Euston. 15th February 1958". It's clearly Royal Scot 46162, Queen's Westminster Rifleman. It carries a 1B, Camden, shedplate which agrees with published data at the time. It had been allocated to Camden since July 1953. It moved around a bit after that, but ended up at Carlisle Kingmoor in October 1963 from which it was withdrawn in May 1964. The Railway Observer reports the loco at Connel's, Calder, Coatbridge at an unqualified date, although BR Database advise a scrapping date of September 1964. There are reports in WHTS of it being seen in store at Carlisle Kingmoor between June and August 1964.

Judging by the stock it's clearly in that period between blood and custard and lined maroon. At least the loco avoided the indignity of struggling inadequately on the GCR for the last few months - they were huge performers and if not quite the equal very close to the "Duchesses" for many years on the West Coast main line.





Brian

 

[AJC]

I do like the composition of that - the classic ‘Old Euston’ shot, but none the worse for that.

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I get the sense, judging by the satisfactory but not outstanding responses to the most recent photos that they are good subjects but not outstanding. Strange for me to say but I don't disagree. Tim agrees that these are in his period of trying to create the perfect photo and that he's been influenced by famous photographers about whom we are all aware.

Personally I believe this collection of Tim's (and the earlier Herbert collection) along with other amateur collections of the railways in this period (I'll include my dad and grandfather) are outstanding irrespective of the quality. They were taken on equipment they could afford at the time and also recorded more 'everyday' scenes (now lost) incorporating details other than the locomotive. If it were not for these amateur photographers; as modellers, historians, etc we would be bereft of photographic records of the surrounding railway details (including the locale) of the period.

Take the photo of Euston above for example - the Refreshment Facilities sign on the left; the loaded luggage carts, car ferry poster and art-deco clock with incorporated destination indicator on the right. Interesting to see the absence of passengers and staff.

And finally these amateur collections provide a refreshing change to the usual often-printed railway photographs of the 'famous' photographers.

 

[76043]

I agree, the shot of 60039, Sandwich at Kings Cross shows huge amounts of parcel traffic on the adjacent platform, traffic that I believe is all but gone now.

Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Just a quick "Thanks" chaps. I'm continuing with the processing of these negs, and will continue to put them on WT. I guess that the better known locations and the bigger locos tend to be the sort of pictures we've already seen many times previously. For my own part I'm enjoying adding to the body of work in existence. IMHO those shots around Witham are of greater value.

There are more to come, and thanks for your support!

Brian

 

[JimG]

I get the sense, judging by the satisfactory but not outstanding responses to the most recent photos that they are good subjects but not outstanding.

Brian,

The recent Euston shots are really appreciated by me - brings back memories of travelling to London in 1960 for my first "proper" job from Glasgow Central, my first view of London walking out through the Doric arch. There were then many succeeding trips home. I can only remember being behind Pacifics until the diesels started taking over later.

Jim.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I've done a bit of digging on the Euston 46162 photo and looks like an arrival on the old platform 1.

I had a look at my dad's old 1947 LMS timetable there were five arrivals between 1.00 pm and 2.10 pm from: Huddersfield 1.05, Windermere 1.15; Manchester 1.30; Fleetwood 1.50 and Liverpool 2.05. Would have the express train times changed much over the 1947-1958 period?

The Art-Deco clock is is not part of an indicator board but an advertisment for Fenwicks stores - which makes sense on an arrival platform.

 

[mickoo]

The express is named...note coach boards....so I'd go with a Liverpool boat train first, possibly the Mersyside Express (two longish names that match the boards) which was a Princess Royal or Scot stand in diagram.

Second choice would be Manchester express and it would probably have taken the potteries route as a second choice and third a Windermere named train but I'm not sure there were any named trains from there.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The first four coaches definitely have roof boards and they could have been through coaches from other destinations added to the train en route.

Did BR maintain adding through coaches to trains at this juncture?

 

[oldravendale]

You've all done me proud with the additional comments which I've passed on to Tim. He is really so very pleased that his images are contributing prototype information to the knowledge which already exists.

Anyway, moving on, this is "Waterloo 1964". It's a classic from my perspective. I took a number of similar photos at Waterloo. 73155 was a Feltham engine from the end of December 1963, confirmed by the shed code plate, at the time so I suspect this was an empty stock working, but doubtless someone will read the headcode and confirm - or give the proper description. Actually, that top disc with the endorsement "SPL 3" suggests that this may be a boat train. This loco stayed on the Southern and was withdrawn from Guildford at the end of steam on the SR, 9th July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1968 at Cashmore's, Newport.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The headcode indicates it is a special boat train - Waterloo and Southampton Docks via Northam. Empty stock trains from Waterloo did not carry this headcode.

The white mark from the window of the first coach could be a passenger waving goodbye and the gentleman in the raincoat under the awning could be watching the train window for someone otherwise he would have been more interested in the loco.

Also interesting is the non SR gangwayed stock on the immediate left. A parcels van maybe?

 

[AJC]

Also interesting is the non SR gangwayed stock on the immediate left. A parcels van maybe?

The British Standard gangway and the round, distinctly LMS-looking buffers suggest that. My guess would be an LMS BG or similar.

Adam

 

[Steph Dale]

Also interesting is the non SR gangwayed stock on the immediate left. A parcels van maybe?

Ex-LMS vehicle, I think, Dave. No Restriction markings or gangway adapter, so it's not Southern stock.

Steph

 

[DougT]

The British Standard gangway and the round, distinctly LMS-looking buffers suggest that. My guess would be an LMS BG or similar.

Adam

I don’t think it’s a BG as it appears to have a water filler pipe running up the left hand side of the end, it’s definitely an LMS period 3 coach however.

 

[AJC]

I don’t think it’s a BG as it appears to have a water filler pipe running up the left hand side of the end, it’s definitely an LMS period 3 coach however.

I think it’s just a handrail - you can see where the associated step has been cut off and there’s another, separate grab on the roof. I don’t know a lot about LMS coaches but can’t think of a ready reason why you’d have seen one, still less a rake - which the lack of gangway adapter implies - at Waterloo. At Bournemouth or west of Basingstoke on through workings, sure, but I’ve only really seen ‘foreign’ parcels stock in evidence at Waterloo.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, chaps, for loadsa additional info about the boat train. All duly added to the details. (That reminds me of a voyage Mrs D and I made on the Queen Mary II from New York when I asked a male receptionist what time the "boat" would actually leave the dock. "Boat?" he said "Boat? - You are joining a Ship!" You need the inflection. And the hands on the hips......)

And now for today's fix. Unfortunately this has a bit of camera shake and although there were many pictures taken of this occasion that's no reason for failing to include it. It is "Victoria. Last Run of Atlantic. 13th April 1958". Clearly and obviously, because it could be no other, 32424, Beachy Head. Doubtless Yorkshire Dave will be along in a minute to confirm the route from the head code.

Beachy Head had been allocated to Brighton since at least October 1954 and had spent some time in store there. It was withdrawn in early May 1958. (SLS). According to BR Database it was scrapped the same month but I have no evidence of where.

(For all those who enjoy a bit of weathering look at that pattern of rain water flow down the side of the signal box. Why has it not affected the area under the first two windows? Also, a lovely little cameo, the chap, probably a signalman I guess, looking out on an historic scene.)

We were sad to see such an elegant loco go to the scrapyard, and thought that was that. Sixty plus years later (the service life of the original was 46 years 7 months) we're awaiting the rebirth of a new Atlantic on the Bluebell which now looks considerably less than a million miles away. Mixed metaphors I know, but hopefully I give pause for thought. For details of the new build see 32424 Beachy Head



Brian

 

[LarryG]

The well-known names' among the railway photographer's were taking photos specifically for publication. They had impact and were generally safe ¾-front view wedge shots leaving very little on view beyond the loco and its train. Trouble was, put them all together in the form of a book and they all look alike. The standard lens takes in the wider field of view and are the best when we are looking for details of things that lie beyond locos and trains.

As has been said, thank goodness for the people who went out and took photos for their own collections and especially those who persevered with good colour slide film. Trains in the landscape colour albums are a treasure trove of beautiful pictures showing exactly what it says on the cover. So useful to modellers. I have enjoyed following this thread.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

As expected...... headcode is for Victoria - Newhaven Harbour.

And it appears there are two signalmen observing the departure.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Larry. I'll pass that on to Tim. I spoke to him just yesterday and he's not now a very well man, but seeing all the comments and the additional info, together with the enthusiasm with which his images - most of which he considered of no value - have been received has lightened his mood amazingly.

I advised him a while ago that if there was a group who would put real value on his images and use them to create modelled interpretations it is WT. Bless you all for doing so.

Brian

 

[michael080]

The well-known names' among the railway photographer's were taking photos specifically for publication. They had impact and were generally safe ¾-front view wedge shots leaving very little on view beyond the loco and its train. Trouble was, put them all together in the form of a book and they all look alike.

Larry,
that's a very valid point. coming from Germany, we had Carl Bellingrodt who took thousends of pictures of locos. He convinced the drivers to pose the loco in perfect environment and took pictures from all sides. It is a famous anecdote that all engines had to be positioned so that coupling rods were at lowest position. If you are building a German loco, you can find pictures from all angles. In comparison, I found it quite challenging to find pictures of British loco that are not taken from 3/4 front.

Michael